Dick Roberts Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 The lp burner fires up but the fridge doesn't get cold. Inverter doesn't work so I'm limited to gas. How long should it take to start getting cold? Or is it time to replace it? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bergamo Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 Give it 24 hours. Check the door seals. Make sure they are good. Slip a dollar bill in between seal and fridge, going around the circumference of opening. If no resistance when pulling out the dollar bill, then seals may be bad. If seals are good and it does’t get cold after that, then time to decide if repair is warranted or replacement all together. At this point, residential replacement may be best option. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hex_nut Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 I am confused. I have never seen an absorption fridge wired thru the inverter. They are wired directly from the junction box (circuit breaker). So, if you have power to the coach, your fridge 120 volt heating element should function. To answer your question, it can take many hours to cool an absorption fridge. Many people turn them on a day before they want to load them to allow them to get down to temperature. Since your propane burner functions, I would certainly give it multiple hours to see if it will respond. If there is any yellow powder around the cooling unit, or if it smells like ammonia then the cooling unit has vented its chemicals and it is toast. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 22 minutes ago, hex_nut said: I am confused. I have never seen an absorption fridge wired thru the inverter. They are wired directly from the junction box (circuit breaker). So, if you have power to the coach, your fridge 120 volt heating element should function. To answer your question, it can take many hours to cool an absorption fridge. Many people turn them on a day before they want to load them to allow them to get down to temperature. Since your propane burner functions, I would certainly give it multiple hours to see if it will respond. If there is any yellow powder around the cooling unit, or if it smells like ammonia then the cooling unit has vented its chemicals and it is toast. Richard Hex is spot on. There are sometimes TWO outlets in the outside refrigerator compartment. One was from the Inveeter. That was to have the ICEMAKER 120 VAC plug. The OTHER was from the 10 A circuit breaker in the main 50 A panel. As long as you have pedestal (or Genny power) then there is full current for the heater circuit. I can’t recall when Monaco added the dual outlets. They did that when Norcold (or Dometic) started using TWO 120 VAC cords…..one specifically for the icemaker and one specifically for the heaters, if you only have one AC plug or wire for the refrigerator, then odds are…you only have one outlet and it does NOT go through or is in the inverter circuit….unless someone with little knowledge or expertise clumsily rewired it….. The Norcold cools faster on gas as the burner has more BTU output than the electric heaters.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan K Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 There seems to be always an exception to the norm. Our fridge and icemaker both run from inverter. Not for long but they do when I forget. Both are on the same 20A breaker in inverted sub panel. When on shore, they get pass through AC from the inverter. Exactly as in my wiring diagram. So it depends, we have xantrex 3012. Just like every single outlet power in the coach comes through the inverter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 In cold weather my gas frig cools down much faster than in warm. I'd say 24 hrs in hot weather and about 12 hrs on cool days. I guess there is such a thing as too cold for absorption, but we don't see real cold here. I've never figured whether gas or electric cools fastest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pulsarjab Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 The electric burners do fail. The four door unit has two burners and I have seen the wires burn off at the point where the burners are attached. Also, inside the control card there is a fuse that may burn out. I have had to replace all of these at one time or another, finally gave up and replaced the whole refrigerator and do not worry about fires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 The back plate in the freezer is the first to start cooling. - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Roberts Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 Thanks for all the great info. I'm going out to start the fridge on lp and leave it running all day. Hopefully in a few hours I'll start to see it's cooling. I've checked all the wiring that I can see, and nothing looks burnt. pulsarjab, are the wires you refer to visible from the outside door, or do I have to dig into the guts to get to them? Thanks again for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 23 minutes ago, Dick Roberts said: Thanks for all the great info. I'm going out to start the fridge on lp and leave it running all day. Hopefully in a few hours I'll start to see it's cooling. I've checked all the wiring that I can see, and nothing looks burnt. pulsarjab, are the wires you refer to visible from the outside door, or do I have to dig into the guts to get to them? Thanks again for the help. Yes, leave it on GAS. While you are back there....look at the "wiring". TWO or ONE outlets? If you are on a pedestal or have 120 VAC close by, you COULD, after it cooled down, use an extension cord. The wattage is NOT high....maybe in the 400 - 500 Watt range (memory and also you may have a smaller model). That would tell you is the heaters are working if it maintained temperature. As far as your power...if you have TWO outlets and you are on SHORE...ONE should have power....plug in a phone charger and that will tell you....or a small 120 VAC device. If the OTHER outlet has power, then you are getting power. REMEMBER....the Inverter SHOULD pass through power....when you are ON SHORE... If you have a flashing Microwave light or the clock works, then the Inverter is working. NOW....depending on the brand and age, some...OK MAYBE ALL...Must have some type of "functional Battery.....as in having a charge on them". If you have cut off your Battery Disconnect switch (probably for your age), then that KILLS the battery to the inverter. When the Inverter doesn't see or measure voltage, then it says....NO. There is an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) in your inverter. When the inverter has a battery (functional....does NOT have to be fully charged), it PASSES THROUGH the shore power to the interior outlets (including the refrigerator...if there is an icemaker outlet....or maybe your outlet....?) as well as the Microwave. Not trying to talk down to you, but this is something that some folks are not aware of....and this is how we all learn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 After ~4-6 hours put your hand on the back of the freeze wall, you should start to feel it getting really cold. If not I'd be concerned. It would take my Norcold a full day to get cold enough to start putting food in it. It never really did perform really well. When it finally died we had to remove the cooling unit off the rear of it to take the fridge out the front door. There was a heavy bead of caulk/sealant around the rear where the cooling unit mates to the fridge and when we removed it I could see that there was a pretty good gap between the two surfaces. No wonder it wasn't/didn't cool, it relies on cold transfer to be efficient, an air gap is the last thing you want. Replace it with a Samsun, takes ~2 hours to cool down after I turn it on and within 24 hours I have several pounds of ice in the ice maker bin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Roberts Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 8 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: Yes, leave it on GAS. While you are back there....look at the "wiring". TWO or ONE outlets? If you are on a pedestal or have 120 VAC close by, you COULD, after it cooled down, use an extension cord. The wattage is NOT high....maybe in the 400 - 500 Watt range (memory and also you may have a smaller model). That would tell you is the heaters are working if it maintained temperature. As far as your power...if you have TWO outlets and you are on SHORE...ONE should have power....plug in a phone charger and that will tell you....or a small 120 VAC device. If the OTHER outlet has power, then you are getting power. REMEMBER....the Inverter SHOULD pass through power....when you are ON SHORE... If you have a flashing Microwave light or the clock works, then the Inverter is working. NOW....depending on the brand and age, some...OK MAYBE ALL...Must have some type of "functional Battery.....as in having a charge on them". If you have cut off your Battery Disconnect switch (probably for your age), then that KILLS the battery to the inverter. When the Inverter doesn't see or measure voltage, then it says....NO. There is an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) in your inverter. When the inverter has a battery (functional....does NOT have to be fully charged), it PASSES THROUGH the shore power to the interior outlets (including the refrigerator...if there is an icemaker outlet....or maybe your outlet....?) as well as the Microwave. Not trying to talk down to you, but this is something that some folks are not aware of....and this is how we all learn... Thanks Tom, and I never take offense from learning. My outlet is a single, and when the IC is working my tester detects 120v there. And elsewhere inside the coach, IC is active when diesel is running, off the alternator I would think, and also when only the genny is running. Still don't have shore power, still parked at home. We go to our first CG with shore power next Thursday. Hoping all works then. Fridge got cold enough running on LP to make ice water in a cup in the freezer. And this time the IC ran the entire time I was testing the fridge. Over 4 hours. So maybe both issues have self resolved. Fridge seals seam good, very pliable and felt no leaks. Haven't done the dollar bill test yet but will soon. I'm going to wait until I'm plugged into shore power next week to finish testing circuits. Need to finish clearing the house for the new owners and running out of time. Thanks for all the great advice and tips from all y'all. I'll update after spending a few days just drinking wine and listening to the birds sing. Time to get to work now so I can leave on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) Dick a couple things you said confuse me. If gen or shore power passes current to an outlet, the inverter would just be the 120 v pass through. And circuits normally powered by the inverter get shore power. In other words, with shore power or gen running the power passes through the inverter. If power works on gen, but not on shore power, I would suspect the automatic transfer switch is not functioning. And on our rig only certain outlets run off inverter; it's the microwave and the loop of outlets off the GFCI The inverter runs off batteries when there no shore power, and passes current back to the batteries when shore power powers it. If shore power is on there should be no load on the inverter which makes it no surprise that it seemed to suddenly run for four hours. Also we have owned five absorption refrigerators and none could chill a cup of water in the freezer in 4 hours so don't be disturbed by that alone. Sounds to me like two probable problems, inverter not working correctly, and maybe transfer switch is not flipping from gen to shore power correctly. Edited February 5, 2023 by TomV48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bergamo Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Your IC doesn’t need to be on to run refrigerator on gas. You will need shore/gen power or inverter on to run ice maker with fridge set on electric. Running on gas only will greatly increase the time in between charging batteries. The real test will come when running fridge in 90+ summer temps. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 59 minutes ago, Dick Roberts said: Thanks Tom, and I never take offense from learning. My outlet is a single, and when the IC is working my tester detects 120v there. And elsewhere inside the coach, IC is active when diesel is running, off the alternator I would think, and also when only the genny is running. Still don't have shore power, still parked at home. We go to our first CG with shore power next Thursday. Hoping all works then. Fridge got cold enough running on LP to make ice water in a cup in the freezer. And this time the IC ran the entire time I was testing the fridge. Over 4 hours. So maybe both issues have self resolved. Fridge seals seam good, very pliable and felt no leaks. Haven't done the dollar bill test yet but will soon. I'm going to wait until I'm plugged into shore power next week to finish testing circuits. Need to finish clearing the house for the new owners and running out of time. Thanks for all the great advice and tips from all y'all. I'll update after spending a few days just drinking wine and listening to the birds sing. Time to get to work now so I can leave on time. Simple REPLY. You DO have the OUTLET in the Refrigerator POWERED off the Inverter (or IC as I think you refer to it). That is NOT the norm today....but that appears to be how it was OEM wired. OK...now... Your Batteries may be OK or NOT....that is a different topic. BUT, as long (generally and typically speaking for the Trace/Freedom/Xantrex/Magnum "Group of IC"....have SOME charge....then when you use the Genny....that is the SAME as being on 50 amp. NOW....FWIW. Your Genny is probably a 7.5KW or 8.0. DOUBT it is any bigger. These are circuit breaker protected up front on the genny with either a 30 or 35 Amp breaker. It is NOT a 240 VAC like the 10KW or higher. Thus, you get TWO lines or SIDES of AC to the Main Panel. Both are 30 or 35. NOW....when you are at a GC with 50 Amps....you get 50 A on each side of leg. You need to understand (if you do, I'm not lecturing) that 50 Amps....EACH ON EACH LINE....is the equivalent of 100 AMPS of a single AC source...LOTS of power. But, when you use your Genny, you only have 60 or 70 (add them)....BUT that is still a lot and you can easily run your AC and such. Typically, if you have a laundry....then you shut off ONE AC. NOW....if you pull into a GC and there is NO 50 Amp.....the 30 amp service is a COMBINED (Line 1 and Line 2) service. OPPS....that is HALF as much as your Genny and one third of a 50 amp service. Pull in with batteries not charged....and hook up to a 30...the IC is gonna chew up maybe 10 AMPS of that power to charge (continue to charge until full is reached) power. Then you run BOTH AC's....OPPS, you are overloaded. You can BARELY run 2 AC's (they have a load of maybe 16 - 17 Amps....EACH. Then you have to cut back. IF you run your Norcold on AC, then that takes maybe 5 amps. Get the picture? A 30 Amp service is NOT 60% of a 50 Amps. It is 30% (30 divided by 100). SO, just be aware. WILL your batteries CHARGE when driving. That is always answered as THAT DEPENDS....there is, about your model year, an ISOLATOR....so after 30 - 60 seconds, you SHOULD be charging off the alternator. HERE IS HOW YOU TEST IT. With the Genny RUNNING....use a VOM and measure the Voltage across the HOUSE bank. That should be in the 13 - 14 Volt range....the Voltage varies depending on how fully charged they are...RUN DOWN...maybe 14.5 Volts....and almost charged or Float charging....13.1 Volts. Measure it after the Genny runs for maybe 10 minutes. Leave the Norcold on GAS and don't run any major appliance. OK....then... Shut OFF the Genny. I HOPE you know to kill or turn off all the AC's and do NOT use the Microwave or such....then let the Genny cool down (running) and shut it off. NOW start the ENGNE....Measure the Voltage on the Batteries....let it run for a minute or so....test again...eventually, if the Isolator Device is working....you will get a LOT of Charging Current....and the Batteries SHOULD BE CHARGING....BUT, the Voltage will be the SAME as what is on the Chassis. SO, you measure the Chassis....and then the House...the voltage should be within maybe 0.1 - 0.2 MAX DIFFERENCE. IF the House is down around 12.7 and the Chassis is in the mid to high 13's, then YOUR isolator of the "Charge the House Batteries whilst driving" system is NOT working. That is a WHOLE different ball game and not for this discussion....as one NEVER, EVER knows what some previous owner installed or removed or did....BUT at least you will KNOW....and if the batteries are NOT being charged whilst driving....then the Norcold SHOULD be on GAS....as you will NOT be keeping the system COOLING... END OF Lesson....LOL... 20 minutes ago, TomV48 said: Dick a couple things you said confuse me. If gen or shore power passes current to an outlet, the inverter would just be the 120 v pass through. And circuits normally powered by the inverter get shore power. In other words, with shore power or gen running the power passes through the inverter. If power works on gen, but not on shore power, I would suspect the automatic transfer switch is not functioning. And on our rig only certain outlets run off inverter; it's the microwave and the loop of outlets off the GFCI The inverter runs off batteries when there no shore power, and passes current back to the batteries when shore power powers it. If shore power is on there should be no load on the inverter which makes it no surprise that it seemed to suddenly run for four hours. Also we have owned five absorption refrigerators and none could chill a cup of water in the freezer in 4 hours so don't be disturbed by that alone. Sounds to me like two probable problems, inverter not working correctly, and maybe transfer switch is not flipping from gen to shore power correctly. I THOUGHT he meant that since this is a NEW TO HIM MH, he has NOT had a pedestal to plug in and get SHORE POWER. Maybe wrong... He is packing and getting moving. When he gets to the first CG, he WILL KNOW. I tried to explain the system as he may not fully understand it...so that is why he needs to test on a PEDESTAL....30 or 50A and see what is on and what is off....then....address any issues. That will also involve finding out is the ATS is the RECALLED IOTA. Since he has been feverishly packing for two weeks....he has not been, nor should he, focused on what does and does not work....and the Norcold was the FIRST of many "OK....how or does this work" items... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said: Simple REPLY. You DO have the OUTLET in the Refrigerator POWERED off the Inverter (or IC as I think you refer to it). That is NOT the norm today....but that appears to be how it was OEM wired. OK...now... Your Batteries may be OK or NOT....that is a different topic. BUT, as long (generally and typically speaking for the Trace/Freedom/Xantrex/Magnum "Group of IC"....have SOME charge....then when you use the Genny....that is the SAME as being on 50 amp. NOW....FWIW. Your Genny is probably a 7.5KW or 8.0. DOUBT it is any bigger. These are circuit breaker protected up front on the genny with either a 30 or 35 Amp breaker. It is NOT a 240 VAC like the 10KW or higher. Thus, you get TWO lines or SIDES of AC to the Main Panel. Both are 30 or 35. NOW....when you are at a GC with 50 Amps....you get 50 A on each side of leg. You need to understand (if you do, I'm not lecturing) that 50 Amps....EACH ON EACH LINE....is the equivalent of 100 AMPS of a single AC source...LOTS of power. But, when you use your Genny, you only have 60 or 70 (add them)....BUT that is still a lot and you can easily run your AC and such. Typically, if you have a laundry....then you shut off ONE AC. NOW....if you pull into a GC and there is NO 50 Amp.....the 30 amp service is a COMBINED (Line 1 and Line 2) service. OPPS....that is HALF as much as your Genny and one third of a 50 amp service. Pull in with batteries not charged....and hook up to a 30...the IC is gonna chew up maybe 10 AMPS of that power to charge (continue to charge until full is reached) power. Then you run BOTH AC's....OPPS, you are overloaded. You can BARELY run 2 AC's (they have a load of maybe 16 - 17 Amps....EACH. Then you have to cut back. IF you run your Norcold on AC, then that takes maybe 5 amps. Get the picture? A 30 Amp service is NOT 60% of a 50 Amps. It is 30% (30 divided by 100). SO, just be aware. WILL your batteries CHARGE when driving. That is always answered as THAT DEPENDS....there is, about your model year, an ISOLATOR....so after 30 - 60 seconds, you SHOULD be charging off the alternator. HERE IS HOW YOU TEST IT. With the Genny RUNNING....use a VOM and measure the Voltage across the HOUSE bank. That should be in the 13 - 14 Volt range....the Voltage varies depending on how fully charged they are...RUN DOWN...maybe 14.5 Volts....and almost charged or Float charging....13.1 Volts. Measure it after the Genny runs for maybe 10 minutes. Leave the Norcold on GAS and don't run any major appliance. OK....then... Shut OFF the Genny. I HOPE you know to kill or turn off all the AC's and do NOT use the Microwave or such....then let the Genny cool down (running) and shut it off. NOW start the ENGNE....Measure the Voltage on the Batteries....let it run for a minute or so....test again...eventually, if the Isolator Device is working....you will get a LOT of Charging Current....and the Batteries SHOULD BE CHARGING....BUT, the Voltage will be the SAME as what is on the Chassis. SO, you measure the Chassis....and then the House...the voltage should be within maybe 0.1 - 0.2 MAX DIFFERENCE. IF the House is down around 12.7 and the Chassis is in the mid to high 13's, then YOUR isolator of the "Charge the House Batteries whilst driving" system is NOT working. That is a WHOLE different ball game and not for this discussion....as one NEVER, EVER knows what some previous owner installed or removed or did....BUT at least you will KNOW....and if the batteries are NOT being charged whilst driving....then the Norcold SHOULD be on GAS....as you will NOT be keeping the system COOLING... END OF Lesson....LOL... I THOUGHT he meant that since this is a NEW TO HIM MH, he has NOT had a pedestal to plug in and get SHORE POWER. Maybe wrong... He is packing and getting moving. When he gets to the first CG, he WILL KNOW. I tried to explain the system as he may not fully understand it...so that is why he needs to test on a PEDESTAL....30 or 50A and see what is on and what is off....then....address any issues. That will also involve finding out is the ATS is the RECALLED IOTA. Since he has been feverishly packing for two weeks....he has not been, nor should he, focused on what does and does not work....and the Norcold was the FIRST of many "OK....how or does this work" items... I gathered as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTerry Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 The day to replace that Norcold was the day you bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomV48 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) No. Sorry, we love having a gas frig. Although if ours had not been replaced with the extended warranty I would have been tempted to go residential and just upgrade my inverter a little bit to handle it. By the time we got the new norcold 12:10 on back order, 7 to 8 months, the full price tag for the install and everything was close to $6500 I think. Not sure how much of that the warranty company paid to the dealer but was not an inexpensive replacement.. The brand new one is colossally good. Edited February 5, 2023 by TomV48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinceB Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 On 2/4/2023 at 9:32 AM, jacwjames said: After ~4-6 hours put your hand on the back of the freeze wall, you should start to feel it getting really cold. If not I'd be concerned. It would take my Norcold a full day to get cold enough to start putting food in it. It never really did perform really well. When it finally died we had to remove the cooling unit off the rear of it to take the fridge out the front door. There was a heavy bead of caulk/sealant around the rear where the cooling unit mates to the fridge and when we removed it I could see that there was a pretty good gap between the two surfaces. No wonder it wasn't/didn't cool, it relies on cold transfer to be efficient, an air gap is the last thing you want. Replace it with a Samsun, takes ~2 hours to cool down after I turn it on and within 24 hours I have several pounds of ice in the ice maker bin. My freezer starts to get cold in a couple of hours on a 75° day. I'm pretty sure this is due to the fact that I frequently check the screws that attach the cooling unit Jim mentions above. There are scews in the freezer compartments and the cooling fins in the refrigerator section that pull the cooling unit tight to the cold compartments. The screws tend to walk themselves out and produce that gap he mentions. Once in a while, I can give them a ½ turn or so. I also rigged up some old computer fans to blow air across the fins. It doesn't take much air movement: it sure produces results and keeps frost from forming. 30° on a 75° day is normal for mine on propane or 110. So I'll keep it as long as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg47619 Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 EDIT….. There is a current and ongoing topic that deals with Norcold and power and operating issues. This topic is being merged. It is suggested that Steven review it. The issue is “ does the Norcold have good DC power incoming or is there a problem with the internal control board?”. This has to be resolved before any specific help can be given…..rather than shotgunning…END of Edit Can’t get my Norcold fridge to turn on. No power to the controls on the front of the panel. It’s in a 2001 Monaco Dynasty Jack 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hepfer Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 18 minutes ago, sg47619 said: Can’t get my Norcold fridge to turn on. No power to the controls on the front of the panel. It’s in a 2001 Monaco Dynasty Jack 38. Check to see if any of your gfci outlets have tripped. Also check to see if it will run on propane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman3 Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Open the back and find the 12v+ and 12v- and verify you have power to the fridge. Hopefully just a fuse… or wire… Maybe this is your rig’s way of saying it wants a new residential fridge. 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jester1 Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Definitely check for power. If not there is a slow blow and an automotive fuse on the circuit board. Access that on the exterior. In my case the board went bad in regards to responding to the thermocoupler temp. Here’s is the replacement I used. Just confirm serial # range. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry G Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Just happened to us. Found a 5 amp fuse on the control board blown. Appears a fan has bound up and is blowing it. Took the cover off the control board outside, our fuse is on lower right side. If it blows again, find the wire going up to power the fans and disconnect it, replaced fuse again and it's running while we wait for delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Moderator merged into existing topic after a topic search of NORCOLD. Many suggestions and info have already been posted in this topic, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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