Salesman Switch issues

[Ted Carbonaro]

My Salesman switch tripped last night as I was attempting to turn on overhead lights. I was no where near the Salesman’s switch. 12v systems went off. 
3 months ago while boondocking the Salesman’s switch tripped while I was at the bathroom sink with the water pump running. 
Both times this happened without anyone near the switch. The only other possible relevant information is; my overhead fluorescent lights often flicker when the water pump is running. 
 

Any thoughts or suggestions? 

06 Monaco Camelot 
 

 

[Ivan K]

Unless you insist on keeping the function, bypass the d*** salesman solenoid(s) and be done with it. 

[Ted Carbonaro]

Good suggestion! My bigger concern is wondering if there is another issue that is causing the tripping. I would like to address the route cause. 

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, Ted Carbonaro said:

Good suggestion! My bigger concern is wondering if there is another issue that is causing the tripping. I would like to address the route cause. 

THERE IS.  Could you define “tripped”?  What did you do to reset it or get it working?  
On SOME older coaches, Monaco used a continuous duty solenoid.  The switch for that (battery switch at the door) was an ON OFF.  You pushed the top and it stayed “pushed in) or visible and the pushed the bottom side and it moved and stayed there.  The continuous ON solenoids always had voltage on the coil to keep the contacts closed…
 

Later ON….Monaco went to a Latching Relay.  Then they used a SPRING loaded switch up front.  Push the top….it turns on or latches in….coil has no voltage.  The switch is spring loaded and pops or moves back to center (off).  Push bottom and it is spring loaded to return to center.  The solenoid unlatches,

You PROBABLY have a bad salesman solenoid.  When there is a high current demand, the contacts are pitted and arc and eventually….get hot enough and NO circut.  Cool down….works for a while,

The easiest fix.  Locate the salesman solenoid.  Probably up front in the bay under the drivers seal.  Have someone cycle or turn on and off the battery switch,  out your hand on it or feel it.  Once you find it….turn off the house switch.  Move one cable to the other side….tighten then up.

NAPA sells a 781144 short cable.  Buy one of them….jumper the contacts and out the NAPA on both terminals and the old cables on each one.

that should do it.  Flickering lights AFTER that mean you have some ballasts going bad and they are sucking up a whole lot of current….replace or rebuild the fixtures with LED strips

[Ted Carbonaro]

Tom thank you for both suggestions! I’ll locate then jump the solenoid. As for flickering lights; that makes perfect sense. I’ve been holding off on the LED conversion but I think it’s time to address that. I appreciate your shared knowledge! 

[Ted Carbonaro]

Tom can I convert to LED’s without doing them all at once? Will a mix on the same circuit work okay? 

[Tom Cherry]

14 minutes ago, Ted Carbonaro said:

Tom can I convert to LED’s without doing them all at once? Will a mix on the same circuit work okay? 

12 volts be 12 volts.  Mr. Electron doesn’t care.  LOL.  Sorry for the smart apple response,,,,,been some of them days.  
 

There are actually TWO ways.  One is to gut, if you can the fixture and remove the ballast and then straight wire (on the package) the end clips or pin holders.  There are several brands of fluorescent tubes that will work on an “Electronic” ballast circuit or a pure 12 VDC.  Problem is….90% of the owners here have the older “two stage” fluorescent or the NON Electronic ballast.  Mine is the older one.  So, I could gut and rewire….and I may do that.  The tubes are more expensive, but work quite well.  

The OTHER way to to read up here or search and find the most reliable LED strips.  Many of the LED kits from Amazon are from any of 10 vendors and what you get, may not last.  Then comes the peeling off the adhesive and replacements.  Some vendors sell special RV kits and they seem better and more reliable but also are usually significant higher….

So the choice is yours.  There is not a significant savings in current draw from a straight wired 12 VDC tube and an LED that puts out the equivalent lumens or light….

I have converted all the pucks to LED and ordered several spares.  Some have failed….I have one that Houdini could not get an LED into in a corner, so it stays as OEM.

Each fixture is free standing,  I actually turn off 2 fluorescents as we don’t like the additional light.  I MIGHT swap out one.  But when they start flashing….or are intermittent, then there is a big power drain on that circuit….so, do them as needed.  If you fix or turn off one on the SAME circuit as a flashing one (s), you may remove enough resistance that the others are OK.

Hope this helps….

[Ted Carbonaro]

Thanks!

BTW; in both cases of “tripped” Salesman’s switch, the fix was to flip the switch and it reconnected the 12vdc power. Again in both cases, I didn’t do that until the following day. So there was plenty of cool down time, if in fact that was required. Both instances happened at bedtime so I didn’t go troubleshooting until the next morning. 
It sounds like time to bypass the solenoid and start eliminating balusters by converting lighting. 

[Rocketman3]

I removed my salesman switches (I have a 2000), so they were always on. 
 

I replaced them with a Victron Smart Battery Protect BP-65.  The reason for replacing them is I can set a voltage that they cut-off. So if something gets left on and the battery gets low - they automatically shut off.   Also almost no power used. 
 

Good Luck with whichever way you choose to solve your problem. 

[Ted Carbonaro]

Thanks for sharing your experience! 

[On_the_road]

I had problems with my salesman switch, sometimes it would work and others not.   One of the problems was the long wire run from the switch on the dash to the relay.   The voltage drop on the too thin wire did not provide enough current to pull the relay in reliably.   The relay took 2 amps to pull in, but the long wire to the dash switch dropped almost 2 volts.   If I jumpered the relay right at the relay, it worked reliably.   I finally gave up on it and wired in a BIM module, which works great.

However, when I removed the old salesman relay I noticed that it was marked as a 24 volt unit!   No wonder it did not work well on 12 volts.

[Tom Cherry]

5 minutes ago, On_the_road said:

I had problems with my salesman switch, sometimes it would work and others not.   One of the problems was the long wire run from the switch on the dash to the relay.   The voltage drop on the too thin wire did not provide enough current to pull the relay in reliably.   The relay took 2 amps to pull in, but the long wire to the dash switch dropped almost 2 volts.   If I jumpered the relay right at the relay, it worked reliably.   I finally gave up on it and wired in a BIM module, which works great.

However, when I removed the old salesman relay I noticed that it was marked as a 24 volt unit!   No wonder it did not work well on 12 volts.

Based on comments and digging, your salesman switch solenoid was NOT A LATCHING STYLE.  It was a continuous duty and that in itself exacerbates the problem.  A latching relay gets on or the other signal. One locks it on.  The other locks it off. So there is no current draw.  The continuous duty solenoid required power.  That power is dissipated into heat and the coil heats up the contacts and that leads to a higher failure.   Monaco strikes again.  I jumpered mine early one.  One less thing to fail in the middle of the night in a gully washer rain storm.  Then I just took it out.  On mine, that made the most sense.

the newer Dynasty has two an$ it allows you to reset (reboot) the Intellitec system.

[Bill R]

14 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Monaco strikes again.  I jumpered mine early one.  One less thing to fail in the middle of the night in a gully washer rain storm.  Then I just took it out.  On mine, that made the most sense.

@Tom CherryFollowing this thread and others before that are like it, the consensus seems to bypass your Salesman Switch.  What are the benefits, or personal situation, that would lead someone to keep the Salesman Switch?

[Frank Bergamo]

10 minutes ago, Bill R said:

What are the benefits, or personal situation, that would lead someone to keep the Salesman Switch?

In my opinion, none.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Frank Bergamo said:

In my opinion, none.

dynasty with Intellitec where your circuits are all electronic and you have one or two…..KEEP IT.

Rest of us with Camelots on down or the 2006 Windsor and older….put in your earplugs for a sonic boom of AMENS.  

SOME do like the convenience “thinking they are killing power”, but that is a farce.  The main parasitic drain is the inverter.  So unless you have a MH where the inverter is connected via the Battery Cut Off Switch…and you kill that as well, you gain nothing. OK….if you put it in storage and don’t turn off the TV, DVD, Receiver, Sat box, etc., you would kill that tiny parasitic drain….by turning off everything.  BUT BEWARE.  Every time you turn off the power via the Salesman switch, your Intellitec EMS and the entire HVAC multiplex thermostat system is off…so it has to reboot.  My opinion is that leaving them ON and not rebooting every time is less risk.

BUT…to each his own.  

[Bill R]

52 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

the 2006 Windsor and older….put in your earplugs for a sonic boom of AMENS.  

Thank you Tom and Frank,  I now have my next project.

[Dr4Film]

How does a mechanical switch accidentally "trip"?

In my previous Windsor, it was an ON/OFF switch with a White-Rogers Solenoid. Bypassed the stupid solenoid after it decided not to work one night when I got up to use the toilet.

In some newer coaches it is my understanding that they went to a Momentary Switch with a Latching Solenoid.

I have no idea what is in my Dynasty as I never use the stupid thing. I guess I should look at it closer in case it decides to not work one day.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Dr4Film said:

How does a mechanical switch accidentally "trip"?

In my previous Windsor, it was an ON/OFF switch with a White-Rogers Solenoid. Bypassed the stupid solenoid after it decided not to work one night when I got up to use the toilet.

In some newer coaches it is my understanding that they went to a Momentary Switch with a Latching Solenoid.

I have no idea what is in my Dynasty as I never use the stupid thing. I guess I should look at it closer in case it decides to not work one day.

Richard,

What he meant and said later on.  The Solenoid did NOT "TRIP" nor did he reset it.  He left if overnight.  He then "pushed it on".  What actually happened, based on Frank and my conversation and trying to figure out....  We THINK he as the continuous duty and other folks, if you read the posts, have had the same issue.  You get an intermittent circuit and under high current load, it breaks down and you have a tremendous voltage drop and the House Fuse Panel does not have a full 12 VDC. 

We have even seen that when Monaco overloaded one of the Intellitec Output Modules and overloaded a lighting circuit....as well as the module.  The fix was to move one of the lighting circuits to another Output Module.

In this case, the contacts are gone or high resistance.  Eventually the heat, especially from a heavy load (that is why his lights are flashing) caused the contacts to actually arc and over heat and they got hot and opened up.  This happens on contactors.  So, the system shut down.  Thus, for whatever reason, the switch did NOT bring it back on.  That is why it worked when he flipped it on and off.

YES....in the NEWER ones, there are latching relays and momentary contact switches.  They contacts stay "Latched", but if there is a high resistance contacts...as in worn and pitted, it still gets hot.  The voltage DROPS and folks either have NO POWER or flaky or flickering power.

Bottom line....in the lower food chain where there is a Switched (Continuous or Latched) Solenoid, either removing or jumpering is the solution.

As to YOUR MH....it is YOUR call. Frank has not had any issues with his.  His system might be a bit more complex in that the Intellitec board actually controls his.  His logic is that when the Intellitec MPX gets into a funk, it is easier to turn off the Battery through the Batt Cut Off Switch....than to go outside.

If I were you, I would discuss this offline with him.  If you have the same Intellitec board that controls the Solenoids, then you need to understand that.

Your Dynasty does NOT have the same "simple" On/Off setup as your Windsor.  It was designed, at least in Franks, to function with the entre Intellitec boards that control the electronics on the Dynasty.

That's my take....and why I answered as I did...

[TomV48]

Ted 

Tom Cherry is probably correct, as he usually is, but before mine failed completely, and before my LiFePo, I was getting a voltage loss across the latching relay, Salesman Switch.  Made my lights dim when our variable speed water pump cycled.  And the voltage  drop was  so significant that the water pump struggled to get up to shut off pressure.   We Found really loose lug connections on the right terminal as I faced in to my ekec bay.  During use, there was enough heat to burn your fingers so easy to find when we got to that point in tracing connections.    A year or so later it started to act up again and with good connections up I  was reading about a half to 3/4 of a Volt of loss across the whole relay and the whole thing was getting pretty warm.  You might get warm on a continuous duty relay as normal but shouldn't have notable heat with a properly functioning latching relay.  I first just jumpered it, but then started to miss the convenience and peace of mind of being able to kill the power when we leave during the day.  All 12 v house power except the frig and the Magnum shut down with that switch.  So I bought a new one.  Held out for an OEM part which at the time was not on Amazon but I got it in a week or so from an rv parts dept of a dealer I found on line, Florida I think.  Wish I could recall their name as they seemed to have a pretty good parts inventory 

Edited February 22, 2023 by TomV48

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, TomV48 said:

Ted 

Tom Cherry is probably correct, as he usually is, but before mine failed completely, and before my LiFePo, I was getting a voltage loss across the latching relay, Salesman Switch.  Made my lights dim when our variable speed water pump cycled.  And the voltage  drop was  so significant that the water pump struggled to get up to shut off pressure.   We Found really loose lug connections on the right terminal as I faced in to my ekec bay.  During use, there was enough heat to burn your fingers so easy to find when we got to that point in tracing connections.    A year or so later it started to act up again and with good connections up I  was reading about a half to 3/4 of a Volt of loss across the whole relay and the whole thing was getting pretty warm.  You might get warm on a continuous duty relay as normal but shouldn't have notable heat with a properly functioning latching relay.  I first just jumpered it, but then started to miss the convenience and peace of mind of being able to kill the power when we leave during the day.  All 12 v house power except the frig and the Magnum shut down with that switch.  So I bought a new one.  Held out for an OEM part which at the time was not on Amazon but I got it in a week or so from an rv parts dept of a dealer I found on line, Florida I think.  Wish I could recall their name as they seemed to have a pretty good parts inventory 

As I said, each owner has to assess the benefits vs risks of using the Salesman switch.  Unless I miss my guess, when you kill the Salesman's Switch, you also kill the HVAC system as one of the fuses provides 12 VDC to the HVAC Control Modules, so your HVAC will no come on.  You can test this by killing the Salesman's Switch.  Then see if there is any display or the LCD on the Thermostat is lighted.  Same for the EMS.  If no lights, then it is in that circuit.  As I SAID...  I THINK this is the way the Salesman's switch was configured....but with Monaco, you never know.  If you test that, please post if both are off or one or all on.  That would be good information.

The risk is also that your EMS system is shut down and it has to totally reboot.  Maybe not an issue, but typically, when you plug in to shore, the EMS has control voltage....so it is "in standby".  Then when you give it 120 VAC, it comes to life.  If the Salesman's switch kills that power....then you have 120 VAC on it and then apply control power.  So, it has to boot up with AC, which is not the way it was intended to operate.  Maybe not an issue for a battery change or whatever, but using the Salesman's switch, it is rebooted every time, with line voltage on the shedding relays..  

The Salesman Switch was NEVER intended to be used this way.  The MH was sitting on the lot and did not have Pedestal Power.  The EMS was designed to have control power at all times and then you applied or supplied Shore or Genny.

As long as folks recognize the potential damage to the EMS by using it in a manner that is contrary to the Operating Instructions.....then each can or will do what they think best.

 

[wamcneil]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

...Unless I miss my guess, when you kill the Salesman's Switch, you also kill the HVAC system as one of the fuses provides 12 VDC to the HVAC Control Modules, so your HVAC will no come on....

 

That's the way mine is. And until I upgraded the heat pumps and moved to CCC2 thermostat I actually liked the salesman switch (just a bit more than NOT having a salesman switch).

But the CCC2 has a clock and a crude scheduling function. And interrupting the 12v power means I have to reset the clock on the thermostat. 😠

[Ted Carbonaro]

When I engage the Salesman Switch, it does kill the 12vdc power as you suggested. The LCD for the thermostat goes out and the Intellitec EMS display and board goes out as well. BTW, my Salesman Switch is a latching spring loaded rocker type switch.

So now I will inspect the connections on the relay. Then comes the decision to jumper or possibly replace it. I assume that if I choose to jumper it, then the only impact will be that the switch no longer functions. 

[Tom Cherry]

20 minutes ago, Ted Carbonaro said:

When I engage the Salesman Switch, it does kill the 12vdc power as you suggested. The LCD for the thermostat goes out and the Intellitec EMS display and board goes out as well. BTW, my Salesman Switch is a latching spring loaded rocker type switch.

So now I will inspect the connections on the relay. Then comes the decision to jumper or possibly replace it. I assume that if I choose to jumper it, then the only impact will be that the switch no longer functions. 

Your call.  I ran this by another individual with good electronics.  The continuous on and off of the salesman switch, as I stated, may play havoc with the EMS (it should not have 120 VAC on it without having 12 VDC power.  That could/would/should maybe give the brain in it some issues.   Thermostats.  I leave mine ON an and rarely use the lower snap switch as it is the most vulnerable. I use the mode and zone and turn off the HVAC system.  Repeatedly taking power away from the control modules in the roof tops and having them reboot….I would not.

BUT…the MAIN REASON.  When you leave a heavy load from the house DC circuits on the latching relay, you are then “switching it” under load.  The were designed for some or maybe minimal.  But turning it on and off every day, then that WILL arc and cause contact failure.  That’s why we have folks with failed relays,  So, go through and turn off all interior dc appliances…..so you have minimum or no load…..then as you leave….turn off the solenoid…otherwise carry a spare (it will fail). Or a jumper…

Thats the short answer….again….your MH….your choice….

[wamcneil]

1 hour ago, Ted Carbonaro said:

... I assume that if I choose to jumper it, then the only impact will be that the switch no longer functions. 

Pretty much... But you'll also save the power that it takes to keep your relay(s) closed. My system had one latching relay and one continuous relay. I found that the one continuous relay drew 750ma.

If you're plugged into shore power all the time that doesn't matter. But if boondocking and counting energy consumption, that 18 amp-hours is significant.

Cheers,

Walter

[lake49068]

Had a charging issue a number of years ago and found a little blurb in my owners manual that looked promising.  See picture.  Found the small board on the main board in the FRB and it had a fried component.  Ordered a replacement board from REV through Veurinks and was told they had lots on the shelf cause they do fail.  More homework...