Koni shocks vs Bilstein

[Marine Boy]

I know this has been talked about in many earlier chats, but sorry, I am asking it again.    I just got done talking with Berry at Josam Frame and he is a strong believer that it is worth the money to install Koni's over Bilstein.  I will admit that they are a Koni dealer which may make a difference???   Also, they do have a very good price on the Koni shock for $199ea.  For comparison, the Source Engineering modified Bilstein are $179 and the regular Bilstein are $115 on Amazon.  I have the 10s Roadmaster chassis, so I need 10 shocks.  Ouch!  But only want to do this once.   Labor quoted is one hour per pair which I feel is very fair and will keep me from crawling under the bus to do it myself.

While inspecting the shocks before I do this, I found one of my tag axle shocks is broken off, but luckily not the stud, just the shock itself .  Looks like it happened recently.

Love to hear experienced input.

Thanks, John

[vito.a]

I would install six standard Bilstein's on the rear and four new Koni's on the front.  No matter what shock you put on the rear it is going to be stiff.  The Koni's take some of the bridge abutment hit out of the front.  And this saves about $600. 

One of my rear shocks was broken off also. I think the rubber bushings wear out and then the shock just hammers the stud until something breaks.  

[Old Dog]

Bilsteins were installed on my rig when I bought it and the only had 17k miles on them. The ride was very harsh, especially the hitting the concert joints in the highways. Switched to Koni and the ride improved dramatically. Can't say how the modified Bilsteins would perform.

[BradHend]

Can’t speak for Koni, but I replaced the 4 just on my R4R chassis with Bilsteins last spring and I noticed quite a difference. So did my wife.  I could honestly drive quite confidently with a coffee in one hand it was that much of an overall change. Bumps were less noticeable and coach just felt easier to handle in general. 
Perhaps that’s just because they’re new and I’d say the same for the Konis had I opted for them.  🤷‍♂️

[cbr046]

Bilsteins x 8 (or 10) = harsh

Konis x 4 = soft(er)

Maybe it's the double dampening force?  I'm sure the shocks are adjusted for the application (RR8R / RR10S vs RR4R) . . . . or are they?

Just thinkin' . . .

- bob

[1nolaguy]

35 minutes ago, BradHend said:

Can’t speak for Koni, but I replaced the 4 just on my R4R chassis with Bilsteins last spring and I noticed quite a difference. So did my wife.  I could honestly drive quite confidently with a coffee in one hand it was that much of an overall change. Bumps were less noticeable and coach just felt easier to handle in general. 
Perhaps that’s just because they’re new and I’d say the same for the Konis had I opted for them.  🤷‍♂️

Were the new Billsteins standard or the modified ones from Source Engineering? Our rig is also on an R4R suspension with OEM shocks that I believe are Monroe. While our ride is quite comfortable except when we go over expansion joints in the highway, I have been thinking of replacing these 18yr old shocks.

[Tom Cherry]

13 minutes ago, vito.a said:

I would install six standard Bilstein's on the rear and four new Koni's on the front.  No matter what shock you put on the rear it is going to be stiff.  The Koni's take some of the bridge abutment hit out of the front.  And this saves about $600. 

One of my rear shocks was broken off also. I think the rubber bushings wear out and then the shock just hammers the stud until something breaks.  

The Chief Bilstein MH & heavy chassis guru told me many years ago, he would not use the stock Bilstein on a Monaco MH if he ever purchased one.  Source spent considerable time and money….like buying different Monaco MH for testing.  They also had several Monaco owners bring in their rigs.  They rented the “Bilstein” Shock Trailer with two full time assemblers that custom built the shocks.  This is exactly what NASCAR does and the “Shock Czar” is the highest paid non exec team member.  They used the stock Bilstein and then played with or customized the internal valving.  Source also paid for several professional test drivers to participate.  Every run on every MH had a driver and at least 1, if not 2, evaluators.  Then they had several circuits laid out.  The original goal was no more than 3 “oscillations” over a dip and the evaluated the “ride quality” as well as the driver evaluated the feel and handling.

NOW BEFORE THE CHIRPING STARTS….understand one thing.  A shock is to control the ride quality.  It may, and that is a big MAY, have an impact on the “handling”, but that is more from the innate feeling or steering control that the driver feels.  Typically, folks always say “WATTS LINK”.  However, your 2006 Dynasty Tag is considered “GREAT AS IS”.  IN fact, some have experimented and adding a Watts link as well as X bars has negligible impact, and that is the opinion of an Ex Sports car professional driver with chassis engineering and design experience.

NOW, to address the OEM Bilstein shocks on your and maybe a tad later Dynasty and above.  They were a special build for Monaco by Bilstein and were “seat of the pants” engineered by folks that should not have been involved.  They WERE HARSH….per the specs.  Why certain execs wanted a harsher shock that the stock “comfort ride” replacement is a hotly debated topic, but that is what lead a lot of owners like you to go to Koni.  Per the Bilstein aftermarket Guru, the comfort shocks were not the same as the OEM.  IIn some cases, Monaco outsourced the shocks and had them painted, reversing the top and bottom, to LOOK LIKE a Bilstein.  This history comes from a lot of original owners, now passed away that were Monaco owners from the mid 90’s.

When Source set out to compete with Koni and have a better shock, customized from Bilstein, they were not able to meet the price point.  I am a retired Engineer that worked in automotive and was always a “handling nut”.  I talked to maybe 20 owners as well as the Bilstein shock guru and Source before I replaced my crappy Monroe’s.  I opted for the Heavy Duty or the larger Source Shocks.  I also added their sway bars and a Blue Ox TruCenter.  That made a world of difference.  The best comment was an off the cuff from mY DW.  I had all the new stuff on and new Bridgestone tires.  She added up the CC bills and said. OK, you have spent a lot on “fixing” the Camelot’s ride.  Take me for a long ride….I want to see exactly what if feels like.  We did a local 75 mile trip on urban, country and interstate roads.  As we were headed back she said…OK, YOU DID GOOD.  The MH rides “heavier”, like the high end custom tour buses that we had on a 5 star tour….which we did many of.  These were the CCI and Prevost busses as I talked to our drivers….way before I ever decided to purchase a MH.

OK…I did all this in the summer of 2012 and I did it in discrete phases and tested the ride and handling after each component.  I knew it rode better, handled better and had less driver fatigue. We headed out I-40 from Raleigh to eventually hit the Natchez Trace and then NO & the FL panhandle.  She is an avid reader, but she could not read more than an hour riding at 62 MPH in an interstate.  She read all the time, except for my boring prattle.  On the third day, I asked….how’s the book?  She said almost finished….need to stop and get some more or I’ll “run out”.  I laughed me rear off and she got a little testy…. “How long did you read each day since we left?”  OM DOUBLE GOD….I’ve read at least 4 hours a day while riding.  THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE and I got a big attaboy for eliminating her headaches by my “upgrades”.  Post Script….I did add the Watts later and the Camelot holds in the curves much better than the Yukon behind it.  Not like my C7 Vette…but unbelievable and i often punch the brakes when I am taking a curve, naturally, too fast.

BOTTOM LINE….consider my experience.  Then take the following “warranty” into account.  

Source are (or mine are) guaranteed for the life of the MH.  I had one leak due to a loose top stud nut and Jim shipped me a replacement with no CC on file.  I paid the return shipping.  No other shock has that guarantee….and the ride is great and I would do it again, except downrate the front after I added the Watts.

Koni will ship you a shock, but charge your CC.  If they agree it is a manufacturing defect, after you ship back the old one, you get a refund.

Bilstein (and this goes back to the 80’s when I upgraded a Volvo DL SW) WILL NOT sell you a replacement or adjust it.  You have to PULL OFF THE DEFECTIVE SHOCK AND SHIP OR CARRY TO AN AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTOR, WHO SELLS THAT STYLE, THEN THEY INSPECT. If there is still a question, they ship it back.  MEANWHILE, YOU GOT NO SHOCK….UNLESS YOU SAVED ONE.  Then, if Bilstein issue, you get a replacement.

That may have changed, but the Bilstein MH shock rep, who actually had the real fitment charts said he had tried for 20 years to get Bilstein to match Koni….to no avail.

Bottom line. Since Source dropped the price, my decision would be simple.  Buy the Source and get the only shock actually designed and tested on the Roadmaster Chassis….

[BradHend]

@1nolaguy

These ones (not source)…Sorry Cherry  

Product
(2) - Heavy Duty Series Front (24-186582)
(2) - Heavy Duty Series Rear (24-186599)

Edited March 21, 2023 by BradHend

[Tom Cherry]

47 minutes ago, BradHend said:

@1nolaguy

These ones (not source)…Sorry Cherry  

Product
(2) - Heavy Duty Series Front (24-186582)
(2) - Heavy Duty Series Rear (24-186599)

These appear to be the current offering.  Bilstein, many years ago, called them "Comfort Ride" or something like that.  "Back Then", the Bilstein shock that was competitive with the Koni was about $10 or so cheaper.  They were priced a smidge below $200...IIRC.  It appears now that the Koni is still the same product and the Bilstein is a different one.

Matters not, the main thing is that the Source is custom valved for Monaco/Roadmaster Chassis.  Bilstein can NOT sell that shock to anyone but Source.  The Source Shocks, if I understand the OP, are now competitive with the Koni.... That is a no brainer....

Your shocks, no doubt, like my original pieces of junk were worn out. I pulled off my old Monroe's.  They could be compressed or extended by a mere 20-25 pounds (measured with a scale and pushing down).  The Source standard Billstein shock was in the 80 pound range and the valving made all the difference to prevent a rough ride.

Enjoy your new shocks and the ride.  If it suits your fanny and your passengers, then drive happily on....

[Paul J A]

Talk to the Roadmaster Chassis experts at https://sourcerv.com/

[1nolaguy]

I went to Source Engineering's website. Apparently they are no longer selling direct. They use to have current pricing on their website but that is no more for any parts they sell.

[Marine Boy]

1 minute ago, 1nolaguy said:

I went to Source Engineering's website. Apparently they are no longer selling direct. They use to have current pricing on their website but that is no more for any parts they sell.

You just have to call them for the price.  Shocks are free shipping, too.

[Ted Carbonaro]

I changed my stock Monroe’s to the Source Bilstein’s this past summer. The difference is dramatic! Leaving Source for the Oregon coast is a great road for comparison. Many dips and turns to experience the difference. We are full timers and I love the new ride! 

[1nolaguy]

Ted, your MH is of similar age and size to ours (2005 Safari Cheetah 40 DST - R4R) About how much were the shocks ( parts, not installation)?

 

[Ted Carbonaro]

I need to look up the invoice as I forget. I’m on the road now but back in about an hour. I’ll let you know. 

[96 EVO]

4 hours ago, vito.a said:

I would install six standard Bilstein's on the rear and four new Koni's on the front.  No matter what shock you put on the rear it is going to be stiff.  The Koni's take some of the bridge abutment hit out of the front.  And this saves about $600. 

 

If I needed all replaced, this is the route I'd go as well!

[Dr4Film]

I wonder if Van will chime in here with his expertise and opinion as he did a post some time ago about shocks.

Here is one post by Van.

Here is a link to the entire Koni thread.

Koni Shocks - Chassis, Handling, Tires & Brakes - Bill D’s Monacoers

 

[Ted Carbonaro]

Loel, I paid $179 each in August.  46mm Custom Tuned. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

2 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

I wonder if Van will chime in here with his expertise and opinion as he did a post some time ago about shocks.

Here is one post by Van.

Here is a link to the entire Koni thread.

Koni Shocks - Chassis, Handling, Tires & Brakes - Bill D’s Monacoers

 

Ha Ha, that was me that VanWill credited with an intelligent answer.  It had to be a first for me, purely accidental too. 😄 I still agree with Van tho.

[Bill R]

Bought and installed 8 Koni's from these guys.  https://www.brazelsrv.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=koni&description=true

Very knowledgeable and best price I could find.  I read almost ALL the posts on Koni vs Billstien and decided to go with Koni.  I replaced Monroe's, so no comparative info I can give other than much better than what was there.

[vanwill52]

There are reasons other than wandering for one to replace shocks.  I think most of them are replaced unnecessarily.

The reason replacing shocks can have NO effect on reducing wandering, is that shocks only perform their damping when they are being COMPRESSED or EXTENDED.  Wandering is not a wild, rapid movement.  It is very slowly moving from one side of your lane to the other.  At that time, the shocks are moving so little, and so slowly, that they can have no effect.

Your coach cannot move left or right without changing the direction of its wheels.  Wandering is a phenomenon where your H-frame, to which the wheels are attached, is "squirming" under your coach and subtly changing the direction your wheels are pointing.  No "miracle shock" can have any effect whatsoever on that problem, except between the ears of the person who just spent a small fortune on them.  The only significant change that installing stiffer shocks will have is to give you a rougher ride...and the wandering continues unabated.

Different folks have different desires for the ride of their coach.  I very much dislike the constant hammering of a coach going over minor imperfections such as tar strips, but I dislike also the "Walmart wobble" when going into a parking lot which has heavy curbing.  My PURELY PERSONAL choice is to use the stiff, heavy-duty shock on the rear such as standard heavy-duty (not "comfort-ride") Bilsteins, and a soft, mushy shock on the front.  My experience, with lots of experimenting, has been that stiff shocks in the rear reduce the "Walmart wobble" without transmitting a harsh ride to the driver.

If you try to cure wandering with a Koni (or any other expensive shock), any improvement will only be between your ears.  You can't fight physics, regardless how many folks swear they have done so.  You may change other ride characteristics to your liking, but you WILL NOT cure wandering.  You can only cure wandering by ensuring that your wheels stay pointed in the direction your steering wheel directs.

Being advised that you need to change shocks to prevent wandering was just the knee-jerk reaction before the REAL cause of wandering was determined.

[Happycarz]

This is for the folks that haven’t seen my prior iRV2 post on shocks from 2018. Sorry to bore the ones that have seen this post.

 

I bought my coach new and replaced my Monroe shocks after 13 months/14,000 miles with the Koni FSD's. Coming off rolling curbs or going through a parking lot full of potholes became a non issue , and an improved ride, to boot.

Fast forward to 2016 and found my shock rebound wasn’t to my liking, with 66,000 miles on the coach. And, believing an article in Motorhome Magazine, I decided to save some money and put on the Bilsteins. Well, after 4,000 miles, I took them off, gave them away and put FSD back on. Talk about saving money. Hmmm!

The one thing about the FSD's is that for the first few miles, I can feel every crack in the road. After those first few miles, the shock oil warms up and the ride becomes great. The Koni FSD's are far better than the Monroe’s and even better than the Bilsteins. But I am sensitive to NVH!

Now you know how I feel about the Koni FSD's.

[Tom Cherry]

33 minutes ago, Happycarz said:

This is for the folks that haven’t seen my prior iRV2 post on shocks from 2018. Sorry to bore the ones that have seen this post.

 

I bought my coach new and replaced my Monroe shocks after 13 months/14,000 miles with the Koni FSD's. Coming off rolling curbs or going through a parking lot full of potholes became a non issue , and an improved ride, to boot.

Fast forward to 2016 and found my shock rebound wasn’t to my liking, with 66,000 miles on the coach. And, believing an article in Motorhome Magazine, I decided to save some money and put on the Bilsteins. Well, after 4,000 miles, I took them off, gave them away and put FSD back on. Talk about saving money. Hmmm!

The one thing about the FSD's is that for the first few miles, I can feel every crack in the road. After those first few miles, the shock oil warms up and the ride becomes great. The Koni FSD's are far better than the Monroe’s and even better than the Bilsteins. But I am sensitive to NVH!

Now you know how I feel about the Koni FSD's.

One thing is for sure….your experience and the sage advice of a long time Bilstein employee who participated in the Source development of the custom valving for their “Source Bilstein”  are in total agreement.  He said, if I had a Roadmaster chassis, the proprietary Source would be on it and not our stock “Comfort Ride” or whatever.

I stand biased to the Source for several reasons.  One of these days, we need to meet and swap rigs and see if there is any ride quality difference….and if so….how much.  I was all set to put on Koni’s after many conversations with folks that had….then talked to folks involved and running the Source Bilstein and made the call.  
 

Either way, they are preferred over the current Bilstein, but resources and need often drive decisions.  Without a doubt, even the cheaper Bilstein will be a major upgrade over the OEM Monroe.

One also has to remember that the OP has a tag 42 Dynasty and these are well known for NOT having handling or wandering issues…  The Tag and the Monocoque body make them heads and shoulders above the Camelot and lower ends….that is where the Watts comes in.

The Source Bilstein or the Koni will be a major improvement over the “custom” or harsh riding OEM Bilstein…..which was a major complaint…..

 

[beemerman]

Some really good information here, thanks everybody!  I don't know that it helped me to make up my mind what to do for shocks, but I do know that I am going to check and see if I have Monroe shocks on the front of my coach.  I like to have a cushy ride but I have also noticed some porpoising on some roads.  I am happy with the handling of my coach but then I drive very conservatively.

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, beemerman said:

Some really good information here, thanks everybody!  I don't know that it helped me to make up my mind what to do for shocks, but I do know that I am going to check and see if I have Monroe shocks on the front of my coach.  I like to have a cushy ride but I have also noticed some porpoising on some roads.  I am happy with the handling of my coach but then I drive very conservatively.

Porpoising is the first sign.  Mine, at 20K, was horrible….like an amusement park ride. But the were the cheap Monroe’s.  Odds are, if the shocks are OEM, they were the original Bilstein….which were really harsh and stiff.  If they have become worn and porpoise, or beginning to, then that will only get worse.  Eventually you will notice it in the rear, especially if you do not have a tag axle.