Replacing Rear roof AC - can I use the old PC Board

[CountryB]

It looks like my (2005) rear AC unit (Dometic Duo-Therm 630516.321) is going to need to be replaced soon. I will go with the Penguin II. I just need to figure out how to use my existing 5-button CCC thermostat/controller.

Since my Coach is wired with the 5-button CCC, and the middle and rear units share the thermostat/controller, I will need to replace the "control board" in the new AC unit with the 5-button control "board" to keep the same thermostat/controller. That least that is what I have read.

My question is - is the PC board in my current AC unit the same as the one that would need to be ordered with a new AC unit to retain compatibility with the existing 5-button controller? I.e. is the old board the same size and wiring connections that it will fit in the new AC unit - or is there a different control board I need to order with the new unit?

I have some instructions (attached) for upgrading a 10-button CCC to a 5-button (not exactly what I want to do - unless the "new" AC unit comes as a 10-button CCC setup), so I 'm not sure if this is applicable when installing a new unit and using an existing CCC.

I suppose I will/should call Dometic to see what they say, but thought I would start here.

Thanks

Dometic Conversion Kit 10 button CCC2 to 5 button CCC instructions.pdf

[Tom Cherry]

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f274/removing-5-button-conversion-kit-penguin-ii-584613.html

3313107.107 is the PART NUMBER in your download 

The way the conversion or system works is that you will have to DUMB DOWN  the new Penguin II for it to work with the old 5 button thermostat.  You need to verify from Dometic or continue your research on their site that the 3313107.107 is the current PN.  Googling quickly this morning found a lot of “out of stock” but some out there.  I would NOT purchase from Amazon unless you can verify that the seller, usually a 3rd party, is an authorized Dometic dealer.  Warranty coverage on many of our RV parts when purchased from an “unauthorized” seller have been difficult.  

Now read or skim the following as there may be more posts and this is for general knowledge…..you don’t appear to have that in mind…..but….it may suggested….

Your OLD Penguin’s control board will NOT WORK.  IF you were converting to a different brand or type of HVAC unit, then you will need to remove the control board and look at the original Penguin installation PDF and THOROUGHLY understand the circuitry to adapt or wire it back in place with your next non Dometic unit.  If you have a 15K BTU unit, the control board is in the rooftop unit.  The 13.5 units are inside the plenum and are inside.  An enclosure is needed to install the 15K unit inside the plenum for “other” brands.  The topic of “convert to a NON DOMETIC PENGUIN” has been covered here at least 3 times here within the past year or so.  The main issue with a self contained (cooling thermostat only) conversion is the ability to control a furnace or Aquahot. It can be done successively, but the flaw or issue is that if the 5 button Thermostat dies, you will need to purchase a rebuilt one in the $150 range, assuming they stay available or purchase an aftermarket one for $300.  In your case, you have 2 thermostats and 3 control modules.  So retrofitting your system with 2 new reliable thermostats, eventually, will be $600.  If any of the old control modules fail, assuming, Dometic still makes and supplies them, could eventually add $400 - $600…(3 units).  The other option would be to purchase two new CC2 Thermostats and 3 new controller and convert a non Dometic installation into one that is current and available.

OK…..I KNOW THAT IS NOT YOUR INTENT….BUT….We usually hear or get questions when that fails….  Many have done it successfully but many have not.  NOW…..BACK ON POINT…

If you elect to stay with the Dometic with your 5 button system, you will need to purchase the conversion kit and install it.  I would remove the old controller and “keep” it as a spare for the other two.  

you will need to purchase the “dumb down” kit.  You MUST KEEP the existing Penguin Ii Controller and store it for use later.  That will be in the $125 - $175 range….from a quick Google.  When the second unit on that thermostat fails, you will have to purchase the CC2 Dometic thermostat or an aftermarket equivalent.  Then you install the new unit and new thermostat and reinstall the original controller in the first (the one you plan to purchase now).  If you do the install, you will end up with the “dumb down” controller left over for sale on ebay or here or wherever.  If a dealer did the work, you will probably incur an hour or so’s additional labor to “dumb down” the unit….then an additional hour or so later on to reinstall the original controller in the first unit assuming you convert to present technology and install the CC2.  Many Dometic installers are not well versed in the aftermarket thermostats…..and there are few that full understand how to make the system work with another non Dometic unit.

 Thats the long and short of it.  Many members will install two new Penguins and the CC2 (or aftermarket thermostat) and forego the hassle or cost of dumbing down an AC unit that is way past its useful life…the second unit will fail in a few years….so, why not do the complete system and not piece meal.

Your call.  Your MH.  Your $$.  Your skill set.  

BUTTOM LINE…..the existing old Penguin controller will not work nor will it dumb down a new unit.  If you want to keep the 5 button, buy the kit.  Remove and store the new controller and install the “DUMB DOWN” one.

[MyronTruex]

Post your old equipment for sale on craigs list etc. I was surprised how quickly my stuff was scooped up.

[RC2018]

I replaced my 2003 Diplomat ducted 13.5K /HP BTU units, (1 was Penguin II, 1 was Duo-Therm) both on a zoned 5 button thermostat, with 15K / HP and 12 Button thermostat. I did this myself with a little help positioning the units on the roof. The BTU of roof units did not impact and mounting or control wiring in any way.

The front unit was replaced before I bought the rig, it was the Penguin II, replacing it was simple, plug and play. The rear unit was Duo-Therm, instead of an electronic board under the shroud like the Penguin II, the control panel was inside a metal box and was attached inside the filter cover in the ceiling. (very old school compared to the Penguin II) My biggest oh XXXXX moment…there was no 12v power wire in my opening for the rear unit. I called Dometic and received no useable info from them, they would not let me talk to an application engineer nor could they explain how that unit got the 12v control power. After some discussion with my local Dometic dealer/installer, he told me that the 12v signal needed for the control side would come from the data line (looks like a phone plug jack but it is not the same). In the end everything was plug and play, you have to set the dip switches to your configuration. (ie what zone and any options you have)

To make the new Penguin II work with your 5 button, you will have to install a (CCC) 5 button control board located under the shroud. On the other hand if you want to update to the 12 button (CCC2), you will have to change the control boards on any other units controlled by the thermostat. For me, everything was plug & play except I had to modify the mounting panel for the thermostat slightly.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Remove four letter word

[Dr4Film]

Mike, how many AC's are controlled on the rear 5 Button Thermostat?

If only one, then you could upgrade that thermostat to the 10 Button and be done with it. However, if it controls two like it does in my 42 foot Dynasty then you need to purchased the converter board to maintain use of your 5 button thermostat. Keep the new board to use later.

[Les Hurdle]

My old basic Storm was so simple ;-))))

What I do not understand is why there is no process for repair?

My Tech tells me the compressor starts and immediately shuts down.  Why?  Whatever, can it be there is no-one out there who can fix a compressor, add a portal to re-install freon or whatever and put the unit back together?  More to the point, given my lack of knowledge re HVAC, why haven't the original manufacturers come up with replacements?  No profit in that, may 'em pay?

Haven't followed up on this. https://www.google.com/search?q=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&oq=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390i650l3.10331j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Also https://usedrvparts.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/md/M11629/useddometicduotherm13500bturvairconditionerforsale.s1.pl

As much as I love my new-old coach, do I care what is on the roof?  Maybe I can get a non slim line a/c to hook up with what is on there.... is that possible?

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, RC2018 said:

I replaced my 2003 Diplomat ducted 13.5K /HP BTU units, (1 was Penguin II, 1 was Duo-Therm) both on a zoned 5 button thermostat, with 15K / HP and 12 Button thermostat. I did this myself with a little help positioning the units on the roof. The BTU of roof units did not impact and mounting or control wiring in any way.

The front unit was replaced before I bought the rig, it was the Penguin II, replacing it was simple, plug and play. The rear unit was Duo-Therm, instead of an electronic board under the shroud like the Penguin II, the control panel was inside a metal box and was attached inside the filter cover in the ceiling. (very old school compared to the Penguin II) My biggest oh XXXXX moment…there was no 12v power wire in my opening for the rear unit. I called Dometic and received no useable info from them, they would not let me talk to an application engineer nor could they explain how that unit got the 12v control power. After some discussion with my local Dometic dealer/installer, he told me that the 12v signal needed for the control side would come from the data line (looks like a phone plug jack but it is not the same). In the end everything was plug and play, you have to set the dip switches to your configuration. (ie what zone and any options you have)

To make the new Penguin II work with your 5 button, you will have to install a (CCC) 5 button control board located under the shroud. On the other hand if you want to update to the 12 button (CCC2), you will have to change the control boards on any other units controlled by the thermostat. For me, everything was plug & play except I had to modify the mounting panel for the thermostat slightly.

I had to edit out a four letter word that the software picked up.

As to your response, I don’t totally understand or agree based on several different instances and helping folks fix things.

First, if you look at your prints, the rear unit, as well as the others, with the possible exception of the “fourth zone” or ghost/mystery controller DOES have, based on folks verifying, as well as tracing more circuits on too many different models…a dedicated 12 VDC to all units.  .Monaco religiously ran 12 VDC from a fuse in the main house panel.  BUT, you never know.  I have done a lot of Diplomats.  

In theory or reality, if there is a single 12 VDC line run to ONE control module, then that is distributed via one pair of the 2 pair data (no a phone) cable.  BUT, for a reliable system as well as no have an issue if the data cable gets damaged, good installation practices is to run a 12 VDC to every “unit”. The “only ONE control module needs 12 VDC”  is written in the installation instructions for the older units in the section about final connections and thermostat interface.

Next up.  Your comments on the 5 button is correct.  However, we have not heard of a upgrade control module that will allow a CC2 to work with an older 5 button controlled unit. BUT, maybe Dometic has put out one.  If you have specifics on the backward conversion kit and part number, please provide it

Dometic tech support, a few years ago, specifically said that you could “dumb down” a new unit….and that is the conversion kit, but you could not “smarten up” an old unit (swap out a control board) to make it work with the CC2. So, if they have changed that…it needs to be posted and the info added to the parts list.

Thanks

3 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

My old basic Storm was so simple ;-))))

What I do not understand is why there is no process for repair?

My Tech tells me the compressor starts and immediately shuts down.  Why?  Whatever, can it be there is no-one out there who can fix a compressor, add a portal to re-install freon or whatever and put the unit back together?  More to the point, given my lack of knowledge re HVAC, why haven't the original manufacturers come up with replacements?  No profit in that, may 'em pay?

Haven't followed up on this. https://www.google.com/search?q=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&oq=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390i650l3.10331j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Also https://usedrvparts.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/md/M11629/useddometicduotherm13500bturvairconditionerforsale.s1.pl

As much as I love my new-old coach, do I care what is on the roof?  Maybe I can get a non slim line a/c to hook up with what is on there.... is that possible?

Reread the posts here.  Reread your original post on this.  Yes.  You can purchase a Non Dometic unit.  There are some that have done this.  Their thermostats are blue toothed.  But, they will not control your furnace.  Never was designed to nor meant to.  You have to keep your old control units and reinstall them in each of the plenums and then rewire the furnace to the OLD system.  In your case, you said that your old thermostat was flaky.  So, $150 for a rebuilt one or $300 for a new MicroAire.  Then the tech has to fully understand how the old thermostat works and then properly wire of hook up the furnaces.  If he doesn’t….it aint gonna work.

OR you abandon the 5 button,  you run wires across the ceiling and down the walls and add a $75 thermostat in the front and rear.  The wires for the furnace only live in the roof or ceiling.  Yes, you can somehow, folks say….wires from the a actual furnace up a wall or on the interior wall and mount the $75 thermostat there.

Thats as simple as I can state it.  Folks try to repair the old compressors.  But if worn out?  A used one will cost maybe half the new cost….and how long will it run and you will several hundred $$ of labor in installing a used, no warranty, unit.

There ain’t no free lunch….

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Tom,

In my ignorance it appeared as if the 5 button controller was not working.......... it appears it is aok.

I understand all you say, but I ain't doing it and the tech's round here just want to put in the new 2 a/c unit replacements.

 

Musicians always find the work around ;-(( ))

If I do I'll let you know !!

 

[RC2018]

Edited to clear up my earlier statement :

To make the new Penguin II work with your 5 button, you will have to install a (CCC) 5 button control board 3311557.000 located under the shroud. On the other hand if you want to update to the 12 button thermostat (CCC2), you will have to change the control boards on all units controlled by the 12 button thermostat. 

 

Tom Cherry:

Product Description:  3313107.107

Converts the new ducted air conditioners with built in CCC2 12 Button thermostat controls back to the CCC five button thermostat or to upgrade from a CCC4 button to the CCC5 button (3109228.001 and 3109228.019) Use when you are replacing an air conditioner that is connected to a thermostat with more than one a/c attached. New thermistor and upgrade instructions included.

 

[amphi_sc]

Are you replacing an A/C only unit or a heat pump?  The reversing valve on the heat pumps changed default states while a straight A/C unit has no reversing valve to deal with.  Only electrify compressor & fan motors via relays.  

FWIW, YMMV

[Les Hurdle]

My old basic Storm was so simple ;-))))

What I do not understand is why there is no process for repair?

My Tech tells me the compressor starts and immediately shuts down.  Why?  Whatever, can it be there is no-one out there who can fix a compressor, add a portal to re-install freon or whatever and put the unit back together?  More to the point, given my lack of knowledge re HVAC, why haven't the original manufacturers com up with replacements?  No profit in that, may 'em pay?

Haven't followed up on this. https://www.google.com/search?q=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&oq=refurbished+motorhome+air+conditioners&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390i650l3.10331j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Hi Amphi

I'm looking for options.

Tom made a great suggestion a few weeks ago .  I run the rear unit and have a fan blowing from the front near the dash and so far it keeps the coach cool, but then we aren't up to the 110F mark yet 😉 I take the point[s] spending a few hundred on repaired machinery might not be the best move but I'm at a point in life where even that might outlast me;-).   If I do replace I would like the units to be 'back to the original'........  thanks to all for the help.

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

My old basic Storm was so simple ;-))))

What I do not understand is why there is no process for repair?

My Tech tells me the compressor starts and immediately shuts down.  Why?  Whatever, can it be there is no-one out there who can fix a compressor, add a portal to re-install freon or whatever and put the unit back together?  More to the point, given my lack of knowledge re HVAC, why haven't the original manufacturers com up with replacements?  No profit in that, may 'em pay?

It certainly appears that the units were not intended to be repaired but as usual, it is no different than repairing a cooling section of a refrigerator or a window unit for instance. Very doable for someone who really wants to but may not be economical if you pay today's labor rates. I have repaired two of my units but I don't charge myself.

[Les Hurdle]

where are you.. I'm coming over ;-))

 

My tech just called said all that needs to be done is ro move the card to the new unit, all good, is he wrong?

 

 

[Dr4Film]

Move what "card" from the old to the new unit?

If you have an old Dometic AC Penguin and you are replacing the AC with a new Dometic AC Penguin II, then in order to use the old thermostat you have to purchase their conversion board. Moving the old control board to the new AC will not work.

Make sure to hold on to the new board that came in the new AC.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Dr4Film

[Les Hurdle]

I have to beg ignorance.......... but I'm learning.

My guy 'fixes' stuff so we'll see if he found magic... next month

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

where are you.. I'm coming over ;-))

 

My tech just called said all that needs to be done is ro move the card to the new unit, all good, is he wrong?

 

 

Richard is right….but we don’t have enough info….from the top.

IF you are installing a NEW DOMETIC Penguin or Blizzard….your guy is wrong…..totally.  You have to purchase the conversion kit.  That is a fact….end of sentence.  That is the only way, reliably, it will work.  NOW, “shadetree mechanics” (google that if it is not a real British term you are familiar with) have posted the “I AM A GENIUS” fixes on sites as well as on Youtube.  Most eventually find out it doesn’t work. These fixes often end up yanking out wiring or messing up the wiring that the Dometic engineers couldn’t make it work again,,,.as designed,

SECOND.  In at least two posts and our conversations, you have a defective or a “somebody tore me apart and thought they could fix me” Thermostat that had to be glued back together because some used a sledge hammer to open it, instead of the right a d simple way.  So, you may or may not even, with the conversion kit ina Dometic new unit, get it and the thermostat to work.  You will need to order a $150 rebuilt one…or spend $300 for the aftermarket Microaire…and they require that the control circuits be exactly as Dometic designed them.  So, unless you have a rebuilt 5 button or new, the things that would not work in your post of more than a month ago….ain’t gonna now.

Third.  If you are getting the cheaper NON DOMETIC unit, YES….you MUST install the “old card”….actually a controller….and the tech must be fully knowing otherwise your front furnace ain’t gonna work.  These new units do NOT have a thermostat that will control your heat.  Many folks are in that rut and have not responded when asked “what and how” did you fix it.  YES…the DIY folks that fully understand HOW to rewire your furnace and “keep” the existing 5 button system running….HEATING ONLY in the front were meticulous and tested and read and did it right,  but they  seem to be in the minority….if you read all the “My Heat Don’t Work posts on Airstream and IRV2.

The above is the short, sweet (not sweet) and sometimes cruel facts.  I certainly hope your fixer knows how go do it,,,,otherwise  you will be disappointed and we can’t help you as God only knows what he did or didn’t do…Right or Wrong.

You and I talked and you said you wanted facts and the truth….this is it…

[vito.a]

Getting back to Country B's original question.  When you have a three A/C coach, you can install the new unit on the front and control it with a new 10 button thermostat.  Then move your old front A/C unit to the rear and control it along with the middle A/C unit on your old 5 button thermostat.  

I know it's extra labor moving an existing  unit, but there are really only 4 bolts holding these things down along with a few wires and 2 drain lines.  

Good luck!

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, vito.a said:

Getting back to Country B's original question.  When you have a three A/C coach, you can install the new unit on the front and control it with a new 10 button thermostat.  Then move your old front A/C unit to the rear and control it along with the middle A/C unit on your old 5 button thermostat.  

I know it's extra labor moving an existing  unit, but there are really only 4 bolts holding these things down along with a few wires and 2 drain lines.  

Good luck!

GREAT IDEA.  But you need to know about compatibility and install.  If you have a 13.5K in the rear and you move the 15K from the front, the control module for the 13.5 is on the inside and the 15K on the outside.  There is a DC line (pos & neg)…the phone lines….a two wire “furnace control”… this assumes the bedroom has a thermostat.  The dip switches need to be set or duplicated on the new rear….like the old rear.  As long as you have two thermostats, yes, it would work…