No a/c power to front air conditioner

[Kerry M]

Moderator's EDIT.

The model in the "signature" may have been incorrect.  It is now a DYNASTY as indicated in the PROFILE.  The original was a 2006 Diplomat Platinum III.  Not aware of a DIPLOMAT Platinum.  Therefore if it IS a Dynasty, I am NOT aware of any Dynasty that had the Intellitec EMS system with the board that did the load shedding....  NEED TO VERIFY MODEL as the content has been focused on a system that is NOT in a Dynasty.  End of Edit

I have good voltage at the breaker, but no power to the front ac unit or at the junction box below it where the rv wiring is tied to the unit. The romex wire coming out of the breaker box is orange and the wire coming into the junction box under the front ac is yellow. Because these wires are different colors, I assume that there is a junction box somewhere that I cannot locate. I have tried using a wire tracer and depending on where I start (breaker box or junction box) the signal disappears somewhere mid coach in the ceiling. I can’t believe that Monaco would have put a junction box in an inaccessible place like the ceiling, but I guess it’s possible. If I can’t figure out where the break wire break is, I’d like to just run a new wire from the breaker box to the front ac unit. My questions are: does any of this sound familiar and what’s the best fix? Thanks!!!

[MrAmbassador]

I am not well versed in the Electrical Management System (EMS), but it does distribute loads in order to not trip breakers. There is the possibility that the EMS is faulty 9unless it’s real), meaning it is seeing too much of a load; therefore shedding a load (your front AC) in order to protect the electrical system. This would cause the front AC to not have power. Hopefully, there is someone on the forum that can help you trouble shoot it. Best wishes. 

[waterskier_1]

Highly unusual.  Orange romex is AWG 10, while Yellow is AWG 12.. I can't believe Monaco would use both on the same circuit. 

 - Rick N.

[Tdkkart]

6 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Highly unusual.  Orange romex is AWG 10, while Yellow is AWG 12.. I can't believe Monaco would use both on the same circuit. 

 - Rick N.

Ha Ha Ha, you think Monaco follows the rules when it comes to electrical convention??  I bet not, especially when there's nothing in the system that requires #10 wire.

 

[Martinvz]

There is another active tread about the load shedding control circuits and location of the control module. Step 1 is to find that box and then determine if there is  power on the output side to the a/c. You need to confirm that the power control module is functioning as needed.
 

[MyronTruex]

Is there a circuit board along the right edge of your AC breaker panel? If so, you have an EMS system as mentioned, and need to measure the input and output of that relay board. 

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Tdkkart said:

Ha Ha Ha, you think Monaco follows the rules when it comes to electrical convention??  I bet not, especially when there's nothing in the system that requires #10 wire.

 

You are missing my point.  While i agree that Monaco took too many liberties and had poor or no real configuration management of their technical data, as you rightly point out, there is nothing in that system that requires AWG 10 wire.  The only 30 Amp circuit I can think of is the inverter/charger.  Most use 30-Amp feed(s) to the inverter, and from the inverter to the Inverter Sub Panel (on the higher end coaches - hot the Dips),  So why would that wire even be around for "normal" AC circuits?  It likely wouldn't, so where did it come from?   Maybe an after- built regulator or modification?  Did a PO have a problem with that A/C?  Is there some funny business going on with the EMS? 

I'm also wondering: Did Monaco make Platinum III in the Diplomat line in 2006?  I know they did in the Dynasty line.  But if it's a Dynasty, I don't think it had an EMS.  Bill Groves, RIP, had a 2006 Dynasty, to which he added his own EMS because he liked the auto load shedding feature.   

OP, it's this a Diplomat with a load shedding EMS, a Dynasty w/o EMS, or some modified version? 

  - Rick N.

[Kerry M]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

You are missing my point.  While i agree that Monaco took too many liberties and had poor or no real configuration management of their technical data, as you rightly point out, there is nothing in that system that requires AWG 10 wire.  The only 30 Amp circuit I can think of is the inverter/charger.  Most use 30-Amp feed(s) to the inverter, and from the inverter to the Inverter Sub Panel (on the higher end coaches - hot the Dips),  So why would that wire even be around for "normal" AC circuits?  It likely wouldn't, so where did it come from?   Maybe an after- built regulator or modification?  Did a PO have a problem with that A/C?  Is there some funny business going on with the EMS? 

I'm also wondering: Did Monaco make Platinum III in the Diplomat line in 2006?  I know they did in the Dynasty line.  But if it's a Dynasty, I don't think it had an EMS.  Bill Groves, RIP, had a 2006 Dynasty, to which he added his own EMS because he liked the auto load shedding feature.   

OP, it's this a Diplomat with a load shedding EMS, a Dynasty w/o EMS, or some modified version? 

  - Rick N.

As a matter of fact this is Bill Grove’s old Diplomat. Since Bill was an electrical engineer, I’ve come across many modifications that he made to all sorts of things. Most he documented in copious notes and hand written diagrams. However, I could find no mention of his modifying anything with the front a/c wiring. I believe that both the yellow and orange romex is 12 gauge, but I could be wrong about that. Although the rear a/c does go thru the board beside the electrical panel, (because it shares the line with the washer/dryer) the front does not. If something has been changed in the wiring or not I can’t tell. My tracer only picks up signal in inaccessible areas in the ceiling. I guess I’m going to have to run a new wire.

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, Kerry M said:

As a matter of fact this is Bill Grove’s old Diplomat. Since Bill was an electrical engineer, I’ve come across many modifications that he made to all sorts of things. Most he documented in copious notes and hand written diagrams. However, I could find no mention of his modifying anything with the front a/c wiring. I believe that both the yellow and orange romex is 12 gauge, but I could be wrong about that. Although the rear a/c does go thru the board beside the electrical panel, (because it shares the line with the washer/dryer) the front does not. If something has been changed in the wiring or not I can’t tell. My tracer only picks up signal in inaccessible areas in the ceiling. I guess I’m going to have to run a new wire.

WELL....that solves that.  You have one of the few, if NOT the ONLY Dynasty with an Intellitec EMS.  PICTURES PLEASE.  Bill was a good electrician.  He did many things and knew a lot.  BUT, if he modified....and I remember vaguely, then NONE of us are really able to help you.  @Frank McElroy was closer to Bill and his "revisions" than anyone I know here....but there MAY be some folks that visited Bill or conversed with him and knew HOW or WHAT he did.

IF you DO have the Intellitec EMS, then it will be a BROWN panel (typcially).  There will also be this... SOMEWHERE....the REMOTE  pictured below...(doesn't control it) If you are conversant with trouble shooting....then pull the cover off the main panel and post a picture.  THAT will help us understand.  IF you DO have the Intellitec EMS, then there is a relay burned out on the control board.  When you take off the panel (main 50 A) cover, there is a printed Circuit Board in the lower right side.  That Board has relays and they go bad.  WHY....STUPID MONACO.  The board was designed for using the LOW VOLTAGE DC HVAC Thermostat wiring for turning ON or OFF the AC's when load shedding.  

NOPE...that was TOO MUCH TROUBLE.  Monaco use the 120 VAC relays.  OK....they are RATED OK.  OPPS....BILL WOULD PARROT THIS...  They were NOT designed for a full inductive (Motor running) Switching ON and OFF.  The contacts will burn up.  COMMON Occurrence.  The fix....depends on your knowledge.  Folks will actually just BYPASSS that relay and put power directly to the FRONT AC as it is, if Bill copied the shedding sequence...MEMORY....the last to be cut off.  SO, if you can follow the board....and download the manual, you just bypass that sucker and drive on.  

Now I won't even hazard a guess as to WHY Bill put it in.  You have, to the best of our knowledge...the ONLY Dynasty with a rear Bedroom Window unit.  

Frank will be your best source and contact him off line.  

PS...I sent you an email about the EDIT I did to your Profile and the need for you to fix something as I had to FORCE an entry to get it to save.

The old girl LIVES and RUNS....GOOD DEAL.  Welcome aboard.  You have a UNIQUE MH....

[Frank McElroy]

Yes, Bill Groves did add an Intellitec EMS system to his Dynasty.  His previous coach had one and he liked it.  

[waterskier_1]

7 hours ago, Kerry M said:

As a matter of fact this is Bill Grove’s old Diplomat. Since Bill was an electrical engineer, I’ve come across many modifications that he made to all sorts of things. Most he documented in copious notes and hand written diagrams. However, I could find no mention of his modifying anything with the front a/c wiring. I believe that both the yellow and orange romex is 12 gauge, but I could be wrong about that. Although the rear a/c does go thru the board beside the electrical panel, (because it shares the line with the washer/dryer) the front does not. If something has been changed in the wiring or not I can’t tell. My tracer only picks up signal in inaccessible areas in the ceiling. I guess I’m going to have to run a new wire.

Bill Grove had a DYNASTY, not a DIPLOMAT.  I discussed this modification with Bill.  He took pieces and parts from lower end units (Diplomats and Knights, maybe Camelots) which came with the the EMS.  I am not sure why he would have used Orange Wire (yes, the color of the Romex indicates the AWG of the wire inside).  Typically, the Front A/C does not go through the EMS.  I know he also added a window A/C to his bedroom.  That he could/would run off the inverter.  I don't recall him mentioning any changes to the Front A/C though.  I you are positive that you have 120 VAC on the output of Circuit Breaker 1A (Front A/C - 20 Amp) then you have a problem.  I don't know how you can route new wire to the Front A/C from the power panel.  I would check the back of the power panel, to see if there might be some clues.  

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

Bill Grove had a DYNASTY, not a DIPLOMAT.  I discussed this modification with Bill.  He took pieces and parts from lower end units (Diplomats and Knights, maybe Camelots) which came with the the EMS.  I am not sure why he would have used Orange Wire (yes, the color of the Romex indicates the AWG of the wire inside).  Typically, the Front A/C does not go through the EMS.  I know he also added a window A/C to his bedroom.  That he could/would run off the inverter.  I don't recall him mentioning any changes to the Front A/C though.  I you are positive that you have 120 VAC on the output of Circuit Breaker 1A (Front A/C - 20 Amp) then you have a problem.  I don't know how you can route new wire to the Front A/C from the power panel.  I would check the back of the power panel, to see if there might be some clues.  

 

True….but IF I understand correctly, all Bill did was just remove the old 50 A and pop in the Intellitec EMS.  OR maybe, as creatove as he was, he found a way to put in the EMS Board and didnlt have to pull the OEM, NON EMS, panel.  Should be straightforward.  Then he routed the breakers that were to be load shed directly to the EMS Shedding (relays) board.  I DOUBT, he uses the water heater, but a simple tracing of what circuits (coming from the breakers) are now wired to the EMS board is easy.  OF COURSE….the usual warning….POWER OFF WHEN TRACING OR FOLLOWING ROMEX OR WIRES?

That brings me back to my conclusion.  Follow the front AC Romex.  Odds are….it goes to a relay on the board.  Temporarily wire nut  the black, white and ground as in a “flying splice.  Turn on power.  Test front AC.  The age old punch line will apply….”What’s THAT noise?”.  Sort of like when i was vacuuming and had my phone of 60’ XM and rocking and bopping and doing the carpet….I noticed that little pits of thread and trash were still there and difficult to get up.  The powered beater bar had great suction and the floor light was working so it wasn’t the pin circuit breaker.  Pulled it all apart.  HUMMMMM  the drive belt is NOT a circle….but a “line”.  Had a bunch of them….carefully labeled and hidden away so it took time to find them.  New BELT.  Ran it without my ear buds in….WHAT IS THAT NOISE.  LOL.

Try it and report back with pictures.  Seems logical to me….

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

Bill Grove had a DYNASTY, not a DIPLOMAT.  I discussed this modification with Bill.  He took pieces and parts from lower end units (Diplomats and Knights, maybe Camelots) which came with the the EMS.  I am not sure why he would have used Orange Wire (yes, the color of the Romex indicates the AWG of the wire inside).  Typically, the Front A/C does not go through the EMS.  I know he also added a window A/C to his bedroom.  That he could/would run off the inverter.  I don't recall him mentioning any changes to the Front A/C though.  I you are positive that you have 120 VAC on the output of Circuit Breaker 1A (Front A/C - 20 Amp) then you have a problem.  I don't know how you can route new wire to the Front A/C from the power panel.  I would check the back of the power panel, to see if there might be some clues.  

 

Bill G had a Diplomat before he got his Dynasty.   I discussed the flooring with him that he installed.

[waterskier_1]

10 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

Bill G had a Diplomat before he got his Dynasty.   I discussed the flooring with him that he installed.

Whole true, that is not germaine to troubleshooting the subject coach.  Had this not been Bill's modified Dynasty, discussions about EMS would not be helpful.  My point is one must know the year and model to get valid suggestions.  

  - Rick N.

[Bob R]

I’m still searching for the load controller for my washer dryer and rear AC unit. I have searched in all locations that are apparent for this controller. The only place I haven’t searched is the ceiling areas. So I’ve about given up hope of locating it. Monaco may have used a different approach to controlling these loads in my 2005 Dynasty.

[jacwjames]

6 hours ago, Bob R said:

I’m still searching for the load controller for my washer dryer and rear AC unit. I have searched in all locations that are apparent for this controller. The only place I haven’t searched is the ceiling areas. So I’ve about given up hope of locating it. Monaco may have used a different approach to controlling these loads in my 2005 Dynasty.

You might consider buying a good wire tracer, I used on to help trace wires when I was having an electrical problem.  https://www.amazon.com/Triplett-HotWire-3388-Circuit-Generator/dp/B0046SPMG4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=FDA2Z79OSVM0&keywords=fox%2Band%2Bhound%2Bwire%2Btracer%2Belectrical&qid=1689854074&sprefix=fox%2Band%2Bhound%2B%2Caps%2C301&sr=8-2&th=1

I needed one fast so bought one from Harbor Freight, it works but isn't the best.  If you look at the link above and go to "similar items" toward the bottom there is a range of make/model/price

[Guest Ray Davis]

11 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Whole true, that is not germaine to troubleshooting the subject coach.  Had this not been Bill's modified Dynasty, discussions about EMS would not be helpful.  My point is one must know the year and model to get valid suggestions.  

  - Rick N.

True,  no problem but it seemed to cast some doubt about Kerry M's Diplomat belonging to Bill G.

[russ2528]

I recently had a similar problem when I took my Monaco Knight out of my shop. The relay on the ems board went bad. I have it jumped and the front ac runs fine, however the thermostat will not cycle it off. You can manually turn it off at the thermostat. The wire color change could have been because they happen to have it handy. 

[waterskier_1]

1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

True,  no problem but it seemed to cast some doubt about Kerry M's Diplomat belonging to Bill G.

Ray,  I'm more confused now.  I thought it was settled that the coach Kerry M is posting about is Bill G's Dynasty.   Did Kerry M also own Bill G's Diplomat? 

  - Rick N 

[Guest Ray Davis]

23 hours ago, Kerry M said:

As a matter of fact this is Bill Grove’s old Diplomat

 

15 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

Bill Grove had a DYNASTY, not a DIPLOMAT

Rick, I'm confused too.  Kerry started the thread about his Dynasty, which is what he has,  but then he mentioned it being Bill Gs Diplomat.   Anyway, the 2 statements above are what I was referring to.   I now believe Kerry misspoke saying Diplomat.

[Tom Cherry]

20 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Yes, Bill Groves did add an Intellitec EMS system to his Dynasty.  His previous coach had one and he liked it.  

GUYS….read the comment.  Bill Groves had a DYNASTY….2006.  Kerry’s “signature” was incorrect as in his profile he listed DYNASTY Platinum III.  I corrected the signature.

Myself and another vaguely remembered that Bill was an “expert” on the Intellitec EMS system.  Frank, who knew just about everything that Bill did or considered doing, confirmed that Bill’s 2006 DYNASTY….did, in fact, have the Intellitec EMS that was never, to our knowledge, ever FACTORY installed in a Dynasty…only lower food chain.

Thus….a mistake, originally, in the signature….confusing YES….but I called that out and edited it.  NOW…based on that premise, he has NO AC to the front HVAC.  He has, I believe, power from the AC breaker….it, the breaker output, is (HAS TO BE) wired directly to an Intellitec EMS load shedding board.

Therein….the most probable cause of NO power as these relays repeatedly fail after they switch a high, inductive (motor running) current.  Kerry needs to follow the solution.  Trace the breaker to the presumed EMS Board.  Test voltage there….on the INPUT side of the shedding relay….then on the OUTPUT side.  If the logic that the relay is failed is correct….NO OUTGOING voltage.  Of course have the HVAC set to AC for the front or Zone 1.  

Then…either bypass the relay (wire nuts) or swap to another “shedding device(setting) and then reprogram the EMS to match the proper load shedding.  Personally,  i THINK my front AC and the default Monaco scheme is for the front AC to be shed LAST…so bypassing is not a big deal……GOD SAVE YOU if you figure out how to overload the panel to make that happen…

Thats the way I see it.  Sorry the confusion, but this was stated earlier and in the comments….

 

[Scotty Hutto]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:33 PM, waterskier_1 said:

Bill Grove had a DYNASTY, not a DIPLOMAT.  I discussed this modification with Bill.  He took pieces and parts from lower end units (Diplomats and Knights, maybe Camelots) which came with the the EMS.  I am not sure why he would have used Orange Wire (yes, the color of the Romex indicates the AWG of the wire inside).  Typically, the Front A/C does not go through the EMS.  I know he also added a window A/C to his bedroom.  That he could/would run off the inverter.  I don't recall him mentioning any changes to the Front A/C though.  I you are positive that you have 120 VAC on the output of Circuit Breaker 1A (Front A/C - 20 Amp) then you have a problem.  I don't know how you can route new wire to the Front A/C from the power panel.  I would check the back of the power panel, to see if there might be some clues.  

 

Just for the record, Bill Groves did have a Diplomat before he bought the Dynasty. May not be the coach discussed here, but he did have one.  

On my Diplomat, the front AC does go through the Intellitec.  I know this because the relay burned up and I had no AC in front until I temporarily bypassed the Intellitec. Had to replace the board.

 

 

[russ2528]

Scotty I have the same problem. Where did you locate a board?

[Scotty Hutto]

2 minutes ago, russ2528 said:

Scotty I have the same problem. Where did you locate a board?

I found the replacement board (EMS Control Board Kit, Model 760, Intellitec 00-00894-200 at rvpartscenter.com for $284 plus shipping.  Right at $300 delivered.

@pwhittle might be able to help, also.  He's an authorized Intellitec rep.

Scotty

[jacwjames]

I had the 750 model EMS.  When it got fried by a lightening strike in ~2013 I contacted M&M electronics who when through a troubleshooting procedure which showed my system was bad.  I had to upgrade to the 760 model which I bought from M&M since it required a new load meter and wiring harnesses.  I think it was ~$450 at the time.