Wet bay (Cargo) heater connector & Background - FWIW

[jacwjames]

Moderator's EDIT

Jim, This topic is being expanded, and apologize for sort of "Hijacking it". There are many folks responding.  Please scroll down to my first post for a bit of information that everyone should know. There have been many topics on this and there is a serious issue that many new to the group might not know.  Thanks for understanding.

Tom Cherry; Moderator

Trying check off another job on the list I decided to fix/replace the wet bay heater bracket that holds in place off the bottom of the wet bay.  I had to remove the heater to work on it and the connector was difficult to take apart, had to use a screw driver to pry it apart.  Got the bracket made and installed and when I was putting the plug back together I noticed what the problem was, the male/female portion for the ground wire was partially melted.  The connector has seen it's better days and I need to replace. 

Attached are pictures of the connector, does anyone have a part number/source for this.  I looked in the parts list and couldn't find, went to 3 of the websites without success. 

I did check the heater and it is working, wires did get hot though.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Expanded topic for general information on Cargo Heater

[klcdenver]

It is called a Molex Connector. Of course finding the exact size is the hard part. Many places sell them. Probably easiest to buy the male and female as a set that will handle that size wire (probably 12 gauge) and replace both.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjbwNK168iAAxXkmGoFHcNNBhsQFnoECCUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.molex.com%2Fen-us%2Fproducts%2Fconnectors%2Fwire-to-wire-connectors&usg=AOvVaw0-Fp24DBsuScB0ebwKsyFp&opi=89978449

[jacwjames]

I am on the website now, 438 pages of connectors, I was hoping someone had already fought this battle and can provide the number.  If not I'm sure I'll find it. 

[96 EVO]

Why not just cut it off and use heat sealed bullet connectors?

[jacwjames]

1 minute ago, 96 EVO said:

Why not just cut it off and use heat sealed bullet connectors?

As a last resort that's what I'll do, just trying to keep things as close to OEM as possible.   It's convenient to be able to take the connector apart to get the heater out.  This is the 4th time I've had it out.

[DavidL]

I second just go to HomeDepot and get a higher amperage connector and get er done.

 

There isn't any good reason to care that it's OEM if the connector you use meets the electrical requirements (voltage / polarity / amperage)

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by DavidL

[jacwjames]

4 minutes ago, DavidL said:

I second just go to HomeDepot and get a higher amperage connector and get er done.

 

There isn't any good reason to care that it's OEM if the connector you use meets the electrical requirements (voltage / polarity / amperage)

 

I've found a bunch of 3 circuit Molex connectors listed on Ebay but smaller wire gauge.  The wet bay heater pulls quite a bit of amperage, I believe the wire size is 10awg on the power supply.

Already think that's the best option, looking a twist lock type connector but still hoping I'll find the right Molex. 

[DavidL]

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-12-10-AWG-Snap-Connector-5-Female-5-Male-Yellow-10-Pack-15-162P/205861878

 

Keep it simple.  Crimp, connect, wrap with some electrical tape.

[MyronTruex]

Without the proper tools you may have some issues trying to do Molex plugs. There are pin extractors and crimpers just for them. Not expensive in the tool world but often folks use long nose pliars and then solder which is not optimum for sure.

Stop by an automotive store and see if they have any heavy duty pre-wired plugs. More chance of finding one there than at Lowes. 

And in the long run, some inline crimps you may have to cut out down the road  really is a simple and reliable solution.

[dandick66]

15 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I am on the website now, 438 pages of connectors, I was hoping someone had already fought this battle and can provide the number.  If not I'm sure I'll find it. 

Jim,           
More than likely, that is actually a TE connector.  I believe the style is Mate N Lock.  They used to be AMP, then TYCO (just name changes).   If you look at Monaco drawings, most of them show an “X pin AMP connector”.  
Go to “te.com”. The website isn’t too bad.  You can look up the style and number of pins/connectors.  I believe they even have ones with pigtails.  They also have drawings with plug dimension dimensions.  If you have the patience, you can try to “chat” or call them for help in identifying the connector.  

[Rikadoo]

Hey Jim, have seen that many times before no so much on motorhomes as i have with others. If i can offer a bit of advise also go upstream, to like the relay an inspect AND replace the relay. Often under that type of circumstance as that connection gets loose an starts to melt the connection from the resistance that the switch (relay) contacts get HOT too. Its good you found it now rather than discover its not working when you need the heater the most!

[jacwjames]

1 minute ago, Rikadoo said:

Hey Jim, have seen that many times before no so much on motorhomes as i have with others. If i can offer a bit of advise also go upstream, to like the relay an inspect AND replace the relay. Often under that type of circumstance as that connection gets loose an starts to melt the connection from the resistance that the switch (relay) contacts get HOT too. Its good you found it now rather than discover its not working when you need the heater the most!

I already know where the relay is so I'll check/replace.   Understand on the higher resistance issue, as soon as I saw it I knew I'd have to do something. 

When I finished replacing the support bracket for the heater I tested it by connecting the two connectors  for the snap disc that controls the heater.  It was just a short time and the harness was very hot. 

[Rikadoo]

Ya know it might not be a bad idea if you have a amp gauge “clamp on or otherwise to check your current draw… you may be on the verge of excess, just sayin😎

[cbr046]

If you can locate a TE connector I would mimick the original design style as close as possible, even if you have to beef up the pin size for more contact area.  The last thing you want is, when "that day" comes, to sell the coach with a buyer looking at some half a** job of anything. 

Crimping then soldering the crimp will zero any resistance, which causes heat.  Just don't let solder wick down the connector. 

While possible needle nose pliers and picks are crude tools for pin extraction.  I found a full range of extractors on Amazon, and you can't argue the price.  There's a few for round style "Molex" type pins.    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZC1V2W6/

5 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

When I finished replacing the support bracket for the heater I tested it by connecting the two connectors  for the snap disc that controls the heater.  It was just a short time and the harness was very hot. 

You could go into the wet bay heater and cut off the top (of 5) heater element for less strain on the system.  This would reduce the current load by 20%.  Do you really need 0 degree protection in TN?

- bob

[jacwjames]

11 minutes ago, Rikadoo said:

Ya know it might not be a bad idea if you have a amp gauge “clamp on or otherwise to check your current draw… you may be on the verge of excess, just sayin😎

Good idea, I have a clamp on and not hard to check.  I'll do it after I change the connectors to get an accurate reading.

One good thing is that the wet bay heater doesn't seem to run long.  Even in cold weather it didn't stay on very long, I was parked in Northern Michigan in April during some cold nights and I'd monitor the panel, red light would come on and go off but not stay on very long. 

[jacwjames]

I looked on my wiring diagrams and they did show the connectors on one page, I went to the REV parts page and found this https://revrvparts.com/connector-3-pin-plug-amp-1-480700-0

Using that number I did a general search and it did lead me to the TE website and I found this https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-480700-3.html

They are offered by a couple suppliers, Mouser for one.  I tried to do some research on amp ratings but not listed, I suspect it might be based on the pin size.  I did find a supplier on Ebay that offers a range of the TE connectors.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/142033050277?hash=item2111d45aa5:g:2OMAAOSwlptZ9zkI&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8KKdqrPNHvo6zdYQI7F9apgDFZVy8uKkwLRd9bDkceUqxSbGmaxRLdelcpqSBpWrzuKAr784Ev%2FB4oF87%2B%2BvetKZ%2FRIXd9F6C0BxVCjjSRAe7LD4rRhTX5b%2F41Q2Mbo9s0Ldv7tnRoaj5EEVP3YfGQ2SJdQOVwiNwmvdHHzbI92RpiWiokeJYxuhDuv%2FP2aXmAPEfoYrP74JNahcz5fUTKqnURnhoCJkl58jI4m4v9uEfdPeFM0UspuBvAr4SsVqYMhbTXeSoyEiBgSrxaoFztOLSqBvIoUTiiUsPkDEYCq7PvcxidXRbbFcFsLlmNjwrg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6CSpKC6Yg

These connectors had smaller wire pins so they wouldn't work.

So after looking options I went Lowes and bought  push together type together rated for 10 awg wire and used these.  It should work. 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Cambridge-Resources/5014057439

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Cambridge-Resources/5014057431

I also went back and looked at my wiring diagram, there is no relay for the wet bay heater, it is protected by a 30 amp circuit breaker.  I did check amperage and it was not even close to 30 amps.  There is a relay that controls the Cold Weather Package which is designed for 4 heating pads ~25 amp total.  Couldn't check amperage there because the heating pads have internal thermostat and it was to hot for that. 

 

[MyronTruex]

Using those connectors, reverse them when doing the second wire. Keep the hot wire as the female connector versus the male spade connector. Less likely to come in contact when you drop it.

By using connectors in the opposite directon on the negative wire for example, you cannot accidently wire the heater back in with reversed polarity.

Just put a male female set together, then the second one turn it around. If this makes sense. 

[jacwjames]

That's what I did.  Did 2 one way and the center the opposite.       Ain't my first rodeo😁

These type shield the connection part even when apart.   These were the best that Lowes carried.

I also went to Tractor Supply thinking they might have something>>Nope and also went to auto parts store, they didn't have any that carried any amperage. 

[Rikadoo]

Package of 10 fo $15.00 might be worth a looksee, if not worth it sendem back

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/6/2023 at 4:02 PM, jacwjames said:

Trying check off another job on the list I decided to fix/replace the wet bay heater bracket that holds in place off the bottom of the wet bay.  I had to remove the heater to work on it and the connector was difficult to take apart, had to use a screw driver to pry it apart.  Got the bracket made and installed and when I was putting the plug back together I noticed what the problem was, the male/female portion for the ground wire was partially melted.  The connector has seen it's better days and I need to replace. 

Attached are pictures of the connector, does anyone have a part number/source for this.  I looked in the parts list and couldn't find, went to 3 of the websites without success. 

I did check the heater and it is working, wires did get hot though.

 

Here is some information that all owners should know and be aware of.  

• These heaters, pictured below, had a major design change...probably due to a "meltdown" circa 2005/06. The company is (was?) a small operation. The design engineer had left and was called back to redesign the product, probably due to their legal counsel's advice. From talking to the "Quality Control" lady for half an hour, it was obvious WHY the new heaters were failing. 
• There was a "One Shot" added to the heater element circuit. It was never tested and put into production and there were no recalls on the heater. This was supposed to be a "Thermal Overload Fuse" or they called it a One Shot. These heaters after that have failed repeatedly and there are many, MANY topics or posts on other forums.  On the older one that morphed into our new system, there were many posters that had experimented and at least 5 different solutions. 
• @Frank McElroy and Myself did some research and experimentation and Fred White, one of our founders, asked that we publish this. That paper is at the end. 
• Bottom line, Frank set up and built an actual "enclosure" resembling the bay. Then he "Fixed" a unit that a member donated...which had failed. He ran several tests and figured out HOW the unit works...and then we realized why they were failing and then refined the fix. There are instructions in the paper.
• The unit is NOT a 3000  300 Watt unit.  They are tested with a 12 VDC supply and usually pull around 15 Amps....THAT IS DIRECTLY FROM the QC Lady. I asked her what was on the Meter she had on the test stand....she came back and said AMPERES...So, it is probably 2000 200 Watts...at best.  NOTE...look at my Camelot print...only a 20 Amp Fuse.  The QC lady said she tested every one before they were boxed. She was also the one that "Fixed" the ones returned. She said they had not had but maybe one or two returns prior to the "Design Change". BUT there were a LOT of them now.
•  My notes from that conversation were in January, 2014. I have NO IDEA if the units made since then have been redesigned.  But she did say that all the returns were for a failed One Shot...and she just put in a new one.
• One final note, for clarification as the conversation is for "Wiring" and HOW TO...  There are THREE wires.  One is a Ground.  The other is the Thermostat or the control circuit for the hanging snap disc. When you turn on the SYSTEM heat, that switch activates that circuit.  The Thermostat is usually one that is ON around 35 DegF and OFF around 45 DegF.  Some of the prints for various models call out that thermostat...others don't.  When the System Heat switch is on, that is just it...BUT, when the Thermostat calls for heat, the Indicator Light will light up. That is the two of the wires and colors vary. The RED wire is a direct fused lead to the heater.
• Hope this adds a little insight into the heater and also clears up a lot of misconceptions. Remember, just because the LIGHT IS ON....there is NO guarantee that the heater is working.  The indicator light is just showing that the Control Circuit has CLOSED...but if the One Shot has failed....then NO HEAT.  PLEASE DO NOT RELY ON IT FOR FREEZE PROTECTION WITHOUT TESTING...
• The simple test is to find the hanging disc...(purple wires on mine, I think).  Then use a paper clip and jumper the contacts...or pull off the connectors and use the paper clip a a jumper.  If there is NO HEAT...then...it is defective. I admit to a small memory lapse and @Frank McElroy might chime in. It MAY be that the fan runs from one circuit on the control board...and runs continuously if the Control (Thermostat) circuit is ON...but there will be NO HEAT...the One Shot goes to the Heater Element...so you hear the fan...but you need to "feel" or measure the air temperature.  If it is NOT warm or HOT...then you have a FAILED One Shot and have the paper to explain HOW to fix..
• NOTE...the only comment on this was about CRIMPING.  The crimped connection to fix this requires a Ratcheting or a "hydraulic" crimper...and that is probably something that you do not have. Mine was crimped with a ratcheting crimper...and it works...  Using Vise Grips and such is NOT, usually, successful. A Ratcheting crimper is always on Amazon.  Buy a nice one based on the ratings.  It is one of the most valuable tools that I carry.  They are probably in the $35 range now.

 

12 volt heater wet bay.pdf

Edited August 8, 2023 by Tom Cherry
OPPS…. Used 120 Volts rather then 12 Volts. Corrected wattage numbers

[Twomed]

Key	Part #	Description	Qty	Vendor P/N	Price	UOM
1	16601805	Connector 2 - Wire Male	1	770017-1		EA
2	16601815	Connector 2 - Wire Female	1	770024-1		EA
3	16601806	Connector 3 - Wire Male	1	770018-1		EA
4	16601816	Connector 3 - Wire Female	1	770025-1		EA
5	16601807	Connector 4 - Wire Male	0	770019-1
6	16601817	Connector 4 - Wire Female	0	770026-1
7	16601808	Connector 6 - Wire Male	1	770020-1		EA
8	16601818	Connector 6 - Wire Female	1	770027-1		EA
9	16601809	Connector 9 - Wire Male	1	770021-1		EA
10	16601819	Connector 9 - Wire Female	1	770028-1		EA
11	16601810	Connector 12 - Wire Male	1	770022-1		EA
12	16601820	Connector 12 - Wire Female	1	770029-1		EA
13	16619202	Amp Connector, 3 Pin	1	1-480700-0 AMP		EA
14	16619201	Amp Connector, 4 Pin	1	1-480702-0 AMP		EA
15	16619200	Amp Connector, 5 Pin	1	1-480763-0 AMP		EA
16	16619199	Amp Connector, 6 Pin	1	640585-1 AMP		EA
17	16619198	Amp Connector, 8 Pin	0	640586-1 AMP
18	4006	Amp Plug 24 POS 206837-1 Size 23	0	78-9090-97123
19	4007	Amp Recept 24 POS 206838-1 Size 23	0	78-9090-58381
20	6738	Amp Recept 16 POS 207485-1	0	78-9090-93106
21	6737	Amp Plug 16 POS 207485-1	0	78-9090-93106

 

Those are from the Monaco Fiche

[jacwjames]

The only issue I had with the TE connector is the wire size, all the info I found showed a smaller wire size that wouldn't carry the full amperage.  The larger wires going to the heater are 10awg, too large for the pins that came with the connector I found on Ebay, which listed the pin size.  Not sure if there are other pin sizes that fit in the 3 wire connector.  

FWIW, the Ebay site indicates these connectors are commonly used on Harley Davidson motorcycles.   So if your near a Harley shop they may stock.

I just opted to go with the connectors I posted.  I don't have a ratcheting crimper but do have a lines man pliers with the crimp built in PLUS I have one heck of a grip, so I'm confident I've got it seated.  I am going to look for a ratcheting crimper though, none of the local big box stores near me carried them. 

[cbr046]

4 hours ago, Twomed said:

Key	Part #	Description	Qty	Vendor P/N	Price	UOM
1	16601805	Connector 2 - Wire Male	1	770017-1		EA
2	16601815	Connector 2 - Wire Female	1	770024-1		EA
3	16601806	Connector 3 - Wire Male	1	770018-1		EA
4	16601816	Connector 3 - Wire Female	1	770025-1		EA
5	16601807	Connector 4 - Wire Male	0	770019-1
6	16601817	Connector 4 - Wire Female	0	770026-1
7	16601808	Connector 6 - Wire Male	1	770020-1		EA
8	16601818	Connector 6 - Wire Female	1	770027-1		EA
9	16601809	Connector 9 - Wire Male	1	770021-1		EA
10	16601819	Connector 9 - Wire Female	1	770028-1		EA
11	16601810	Connector 12 - Wire Male	1	770022-1		EA
12	16601820	Connector 12 - Wire Female	1	770029-1		EA
13	16619202	Amp Connector, 3 Pin	1	1-480700-0 AMP		EA
14	16619201	Amp Connector, 4 Pin	1	1-480702-0 AMP		EA
15	16619200	Amp Connector, 5 Pin	1	1-480763-0 AMP		EA
16	16619199	Amp Connector, 6 Pin	1	640585-1 AMP		EA
17	16619198	Amp Connector, 8 Pin	0	640586-1 AMP
18	4006	Amp Plug 24 POS 206837-1 Size 23	0	78-9090-97123
19	4007	Amp Recept 24 POS 206838-1 Size 23	0	78-9090-58381
20	6738	Amp Recept 16 POS 207485-1	0	78-9090-93106
21	6737	Amp Plug 16 POS 207485-1	0	78-9090-93106

 

Those are from the Monaco Fiche

@Tom Cherry these connectors are GREAT reference material.  Stickie? 

- bob

 

3 hours ago, jacwjames said:

The only issue I had with the TE connector is the wire size, all the info I found showed a smaller wire size that wouldn't carry the full amperage. 

Another option would be to use a 6 pin connector vs the 3 pin OEM connector and jumper the high current pins to adjacent pins, doubling up the connectors. 

But if the spade lugs work . . .

- bob