HELP ENGINE DIED

[cbr046]

2003 Endeavor w Cummins ISC and Allison 4000

Idling in front of pump at truck stop engine simply shut off.  Try to re-crank and no lights on dash or trans shift module.  Nothing.  Stairs go in w turn of ign key.  Plenty of chassis volts, fuses in FRB and RRB appear OK. 

Call me 770.778.9343 if you give troubleshooting hints.

- bob

[cbr046]

FASS fuel pump does energize.  It's fed off the ign circuit in the FRB. 

Still no other dash lights.

Then suddenly . . . wiggling ign switch gives lights! 

Following that lead . .

 - b

[MyronTruex]

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. I have heard of plenty of ignition switches changed over the years.

You might be able to download a schematic for the ignition switch and see if voltage is getting through but you might be able to source a new one quickly and just swap it out. 

[Luther Taylor]

Just changed mine out, probably the first ignition  change in 21 years. The replacement for it was for a 1972 Chevrolet. Got it at NAPA for about $32. 
Good Luck. 🍀 
 

[Mike Wahl]

I had a similar situation with the ignition switch in my 2001 Signature.  I had two situations.  Once it would not engage the starter. Another time I had dead chassis battery.  I found that the tumblers were worn to the point the key could be pulled out at any position which would allow us to leave the ignition on and drain the batteries.  I also found that when you turned on the ignition it wasn’t always making connection in the switch and sending voltage out to the starter solenoid.  I tested mine by opening up the dash and checking for voltage on the starter output on the switch.   Mine was also a 1970’s style  GM ignition switch.    I replaced mine and the issues when away.

 

Mike

[cbr046]

Finally got the key switch plug off the back of the switch . . . .

There's 6 connections on the back of the switch:  Batt, Lamp Check, Ground, Key, ON SSN and ACC. 

If I connect Batt -->Key I get the normal dash lights EXCEPT "Wait to Start".  I let it go like that before connecting Batt-->ON SSN, which I believe is the starter engagement.  BEFORE I CONNECTED the wire to ON SSN the dash lights went out (like original symptom). 

I'm thinking something else is amiss, but what?

I'm stumped, and still sitting here at a Pilot gas pump. 

- bob

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

Bob,  I have heard of this being caused by a couple of small wires back at the batteries.  These wires feed the ECMs for the engine and transmission.  Often they are accidentally left off when working on the batteries or they corrode and lose connection or break & fall down out of sight.  There is usually a fuse back there somewhere near the batteries, probably an inline fuse.  Hope this will help

[cbr046]

Thanks.  All the fuses are good but didn't check for voltage.  Waiting on a tow truck.  Hopefully they know what they're doing.  We're waiting on what we feel is a reputable company, time will tell. 

- bob

[Ivan K]

Just guessing but is your ignition solenoid (in FRB?) reliably getting trigger power from the switch? If so, is it passing power? 

[David Pratt]

Monaco had a known problem of Ignition Switch Failures during the time frame 2003 thru 2006. Before you go spending a lot of time and money trouble shooting your problem replace the Ignition Switch. Remove the Switch and take it yo any Automotive parts house and they can match it up. It is a common Ignition Switch used in most GM vehicles in the 60's and early 70's and inexpensive.

The Ignition Switch has probably failed internally.

If you do a search you will find several posts already on this topic and a most recent one less than three months ago.

[Rikadoo]

Mine failed in front of my house, crank no start, now i carry a spare… last week when switched to Acc nothing worked, wiggled the key an it all came back on, third world parts🤦‍♂️😡

[cbr046]

All the fuses in the REAR RUN BAY are good (things like Trans, Eng B, Eng C, etc fuses).  There's 2 circuit breakers on the back panel (out of view) that pass voltage also.  They are a stud type on a buss bar.  What do these two breakers do?  The studs were re-tightened anyway.  But . . . . what does the relay do under the Chassis Battery Switch?

[MyronTruex]

Sorry but can't help on that component. However, the large solenoid to the bottom left appears to need some serious cleaning.  Or replacing and cleaning. 

[cbr046]

All good suggestions above.  Thank you @Ray Davis, @Mike Wahl, @Ivan K, @Rikadoo, @David Pratt, @myrontruex and anyone I left out. 

Finally got the moho towed to in front of the house.  The coach still seemed intact.  The driver left at 0330.  Up Saturday at 8 am, get re-packed then drive the SUV 250 miles to a race I was working.  Got a bunch registered, ate then spent the night in a cargo trailer (the "original" camper).  Sunday am up at 0630 to register the rest, ran scoring for the race, pack up and get home at 8:30pm.  Oh yeah, it rained most of the day, but at least we were under a big tent . . . .

When I got home the moho was still in front of the house.  This nightmare wasn't going away by itself. 

Today I replaced the mystery relay and the ignition switch.  Still no dash lights . . . .

I re-tightened all the power posts (connector on a stud) I could find.  Re-inserted ECU connectors, and pretty much every connector I could find.  Swapped Aux / IGN / PL relays on FRB control board.  I couldn't find any common ground posts . . . . (2003 Endeavor / Diplomat).

When I removed the panel cover under the transmission selector I got dash lights for a minute or so.  Wiggling cables / harnesses / bundles under the selector had no effect.  Got up under the dash and wiggle more cables / harnesses to no effect.  Then I moved a harness way up high under the dash that fished through the front firewall and got dash lights that seemed to stay on for more than 30 sec. 

The battery didn't have enough juice to turn the motor, even with a jumper cable to the the coach batteries.  So I cranked up the genny to charge the batts.  After 30 min of charging the coach started!  After aprox 2 min (air psi 10->60, whatever that time is) the engine shut off and no dash lights.  Jiggle / wiggle some harnesses with key on and no dash lights.  Wait a while, try again and dash lights + start.  The engine died again so try some other random pokes & prods.  Turn the key, no dash lights.  Turn the key again and dash lights + start.  Let it idle up to 125 psi air pressure then it was now or never.  Drop the jacks and drove it / backed it up from the street in front of the house into the driveway and under the pole barn.  Let it idle a good 15 min more without a hiccup. 

I did find a "Battery Lock Out Relay" on the front firewall with some nasty looking spade lugs on it.  I'm not sure what this relay really does . . .  Would this kill the ignition circuit?

While the engine was idling I went all over the coach tapping on relays, wiggling harnesses, moving connectors, banging on panels . . . . . no fails. 

MY PROBLEM ISN'T FIXED.  IT'S JUST WAITING TO FAIL AGAIN.

I don't know where the connector(s) is/are on the ISC engine, but that's next.  The street wasn't level so I couldn't crawl up under and didn't want to dive in from the bedroom closet until I could let the slide out. 

Did I mention my foot and ankle are broken?  This definitely slows me down . . . . I just started walking in an orthopedic boot 5 days ago, and it hurts the more I walk on it. 

I don't know where all the grounds come together. 

Documentation is atrocious (I've been searching for years for Endeavor / Diplomat readable wiring diagrams from 2001 - 2005). 

Sorry for the long post.  I'd like to find this before a 400 mile (one way) trip this weekend. 

Cheers,

- bob

 

14 minutes ago, myrontruex said:

Sorry but can't help on that component. However, the large solenoid to the bottom left appears to need some serious cleaning.  Or replacing and cleaning. 

That's the battery boost solenoid.  I'll get to it . . . . someday.

- b

[cbr046]

Thanks to @Frank McElroy for posting a new wiring diagram for the Knight (which also covers most Monaco / HR's) that relay is a "Sealed Engine Ignition Relay".  It's not my problem as I replaced it anyway, but it could have been!

- bob

[MyronTruex]

Bob, my concern about that solenoid is that you could have dead house batteries or engine battery if you have some sort of bi-directional control over that relay. I don't want to steer your current issue off track. 

Pull the battery lock out relay and see if the dash lights go out!

If they do, I surely would replace the relay. Heck, replace it anyway. 

I know it is crazy, but it is not uncommon to have more than one problem. You could have a problem in and around the shift panel as you found wiggling wires. 

If your schematic is at all usable, finding a few places you can take readings with a voltmeter or test light so you can get to them quickly if the problem presents itself again. 

 

 

[Bruce S]

We are having exactly the same issue with our 03 Signature.  I would turn the ignition key and either a no crank or it would start.  I found a replacement ignition switch at local parts store and swapped it out with no change.  I then followed the instructions in our manual for starting issues.  In our case the PCB#1 or Intellitec board 73-00825 is suspect in the .  This board contains 3 relays, namely Ignition Relay, Start Solenoid Relay and Neutral Safety Relay.  Failure of the Start Solenoid or Neutral Safety relays will cause a no crank/no start condition.  Failure of the Ignition relay will cause the engine to shutdown while either parked or in motion.  We are shipping our card to M&M RV electronics who will rebuild the card since replacements are no longer available.  Turnaround time is 10-15 business days plus shipping time.  Your coach may vary but according to the tech I discussed this problem with he sees these cards fail all the time.  I'd even consider a spare if I could find one... good luck.

 

[MyronTruex]

Bruce, you probably can find those relays and having them on hand at least could give you some peace of mind. However, they lasted this long and probably will last the rest of the life of the RV.

I believe I remember your thread on your issue. 

 

[cbr046]

@Bruce S you can swap to of those relays around to see if your symptom changes . . . unless they're soldered in! 

Thanks for sharing. 

- bob

 

[Bruce S]

The relays are soldered in place or I would have tried new ones.  Even if I could have swapped the start and run relay the engine might turn over but would quit again....Not only that but the neutral safety is a different relay altogether.  These relays were working fine until we ended up parked in 106F weather for 3 days, that and the fact they are likely original to the coach.  Our RRP had been butchered before we purchased the coach.  My guess is that someone left the battery boost switch closed and ended up frying part of the panel.  I ended up rebuilding this panel close to original but without the Big Boy relay which was missing.  Did these cards suffer some damage at that time and it was only a matter of when, not if, they would fail?  Your guess is as good as mine... I have one other card to eventually send out but it still works ok so I will leave it as is until run to failure on it.  Thanks for the suggestions though.  🙂

[b_faster]

@cbr046 Did you toggle the rear "Front/Rear" Switches?   Does the problem happen with the switch in the "rear" position?  I had one of those events once and it was the rear run switch. 

 

[Bruce S]

Yes, I tried starting from both locations while watching the status LED's.  There was no response.  I did finally get the engine to start from the front while sitting in a Walmart parking lot and did not shut it down again until the coach was back home in the garage (we were about 6 hours from home at that time).  That was when I removed the card for servicing.

Your question had already occurred to me which might have sent me in another direction had the engine started from the rear.  Interestingly, we had shut the engine down twice and restarted same in the previous hour for fueling and for going through Canada customs.  I was praying it didn't die in either location...lol.

[cbr046]

The Endeavor / Diplomat doesn't have a rear run-start switch.

I think I've narrowed it down to either an intermittent connection in the bottom wiring harness to the FRB Monaco 2 fuse box or the ignition relay in same box.  Looking at the schematic (thank you again Frank McElroy) many of the things that turn on / don't turn on seem to focus on this relay.  I swapped the Ignition relay with the Park Bell 1 relay next to it yesterday.  So far I get a proper start sequence of dash lights 100% of the time.  I'll start and let it idle today. 

Question is . . . . if the Park Bell 1 relay is intermittent what ALL does that effect? 

In the process I pulled away the dash looking for "issues".  I found 2 nuts holding wires on a stud loose, one nut completely missing and one spade lug (temp gauge backlight) broken from it's mount.  These all connected to different instruments not related to my start problem, but I did have an issue of turning on the headlights and the dash voltmeter dropping to ~9V (an error verified by independent voltmeter).  Now that's gone and I have a more reliable dash meter again.  👍

Oh, and I signed up for Coach-Net . . . . just a few days and a tow late 😉

It looks like these relays are becoming scarce.  It's a VJ28-95F24-S01

- bob

[MyronTruex]

To find out what the relay controls, just pull it out. And while it is out, take some pictures of it. Might be able to come up with a simple replacement. 

[jacwjames]

No sure on our coach is compared to mine but I checked my wiring diagram and the park bell(s) relays are somehow intertwined with the neutral sense and the cruise control. 

Did you look at the wiring harnesses that connect to the #2 box, any signs of corrosion??

What is the going rate for Coachnet???

 

These types of problems are difficult to find and correct, good luck.