IOTA 50-R FAILURE - intermittent shore power - SAFETY & FIRE HAZARD

[Tom Wallis]

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I used the WFCO T57 to replace the IOTA because the terminals are not reversed but in almost the same positions. I was able to hook it up without out a single change to the wiring.

[Bob Keating]

Thanks Kevin. I will look to see if it will work.

[Bob Keating]

Tom,

Thank you for your help. My problem was looking at the lid of the IOTA. It appeared to have the panel and generator reversed from the WFCO. I eventually started the generator and found that the top bundle as mounted is indeed the generator, which appear to be the exact hook up for the WFCO.

Thank you all for your patience.

[CaptPat]

On 9/15/2022 at 5:10 PM, saflyer said:

You can turn the LPT50BRD upside down to solve the problem of connections being on opposite side from those on IOTA. Checked with ESCO tech support and was told this is acceptable.

 

Ed         
‘05 HR Ambassador 

That’s interesting as ESCO told me not to mount the switch upside down(top facing down aka ceiling mount) as that would have an adverse affect on the relays.  Vertically or right side up were the preferred mounting orientations.  Fortunately there was enough cable to make a vertical mount work, YMMV. 

15 minutes ago, Bob Keating said:

Tom,

Thank you for your help. My problem was looking at the lid of the IOTA. It appeared to have the panel and generator reversed from the WFCO. I eventually started the generator and found that the top bundle as mounted is indeed the generator, which appear to be the exact hook up for the WFCO.

Thank you all for your patience.

Good idea to mark the cables when replacing the switch, so next time there’s no confusion  

[Bob Keating]

Thanks Ed.

I think the WFCO or Arterra (same thing) is the way I will go.

[Tom Cherry]

13 minutes ago, Bob Keating said:

Tom,

Thank you for your help. My problem was looking at the lid of the IOTA. It appeared to have the panel and generator reversed from the WFCO. I eventually started the generator and found that the top bundle as mounted is indeed the generator, which appear to be the exact hook up for the WFCO.

Thank you all for your patience.

Since I am biased, I prefer the ESCO LPT50BRD.  However there are other switches out there. The "issues" with interchangability need to be reviewed and evaluated based on performance. Many people have easily installed the LPT50BRD and there was only one example, which was addressed, as to how to actually install it when the leads were too short to get enough of the ground for the LPT50BRD. 

So, I would read or skim the info and then make the evaluation on which one to install and the report of failures or successes.  THEN, look at whether it will be an issue.

The MAIN thing, regardless of the install, is to use Loctite GREEN on the Terminals. ALL the ATS tech specs and talking to the tech support are ADAMANT about retorquing every month or 3 months....due to the vibration of the MH. 

ESCO said that the Loctite Green was OK and would be much better, but did not want to get into a massive product testing study. Electricians, primarily commercial applications where there is a large motor or machinery with vibration routinely use Green....to prevent a high resistance connection.  This is not exactly VooDoo Witchcraft....just common sense.

Good Luck.

5 minutes ago, CaptPat said:

That’s interesting as ESCO told me not to mount the switch upside down(top facing down aka ceiling mount) as that would have an adverse affect on the relays.  Vertically or right side up were the preferred mounting orientations.  Fortunately there was enough cable to make a vertical mount work, YMMV. 

Good idea to mark the cables when replacing the switch, so next time there’s no confusion  

Very interesting.....as they never said that nor, I believe, is it in the instructions. Mine has been on the cardboard ceiling since I replaced it.  Monaco put it up there. I have seen the ATS on walls and ceilings and just about anywhere. The contractors don't know up from down. The surge devices, like the HW50C also are mounted as needed.

Fascinating.  I have over 70 K on my install.  May fail tomorrow...but no issues.  We have also not had any reports, that I can remember, due to that.  BUT....who knows....

 

[96 EVO]

I too replaced a ceiling mounted IOTA switch with a LPT50BRD.

That was 4 or 5yrs ago, and it's caused no issues 🤔!

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Bob Keating said:

Tom, sorry I broke protocol!

I did search this topic extensively, and I did find the information about the ESCO switch. That switch would work, but the inputs and output are different from mine. The attached photo shows you what I am dealing with. The wiring has very short stub outs with little room to move the wiring.

I will do my best to post in the proper topic in the future.

 Not a problem.  We were getting fragmented and starting to monitor topics and keep new posts about the same issue merged and combined.

AS our founder said, Monaco never made two MH alike.  Most of the ones that folks have done and posted pictures of had a few feet of the Sealtite or the flexible conduit.  In most instances, you could reshuffle or rearrange and the order was easy to change.  We also had some that would have required splitting the conduit and running a common ground from outside the ATS to inside.  Not esthetically pleasing, but functional and safe and actually meets NEC.

Congratulations….LOL.  You have the worst install we have seen.  Yes, if you can find an exact ATS with the 3 cables in the correct orientation and has a 12 terminal strip and a reasonably good reputation, I would do it.  I have had to make a 50 A 4 wire splice in a J-Box and that was no fun.  Doing 3 would be even worse.  Four split bolts in each one.  Would probably have Blue Loctited the bolts due to driving vibration.

good luck.  Show us your handiwork.

[CaptPat]

 

4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Since I am biased, I prefer the ESCO LPT50BRD.  However there are other switches out there. The "issues" with interchangability need to be reviewed and evaluated based on performance. Many people have easily installed the LPT50BRD and there was only one example, which was addressed, as to how to actually install it when the leads were too short to get enough of the ground for the LPT50BRD. 

So, I would read or skim the info and then make the evaluation on which one to install and the report of failures or successes.  THEN, look at whether it will be an issue.

The MAIN thing, regardless of the install, is to use Loctite GREEN on the Terminals. ALL the ATS tech specs and talking to the tech support are ADAMANT about retorquing every month or 3 months....due to the vibration of the MH. 

ESCO said that the Loctite Green was OK and would be much better, but did not want to get into a massive product testing study. Electricians, primarily commercial applications where there is a large motor or machinery with vibration routinely use Green....to prevent a high resistance connection.  This is not exactly VooDoo Witchcraft....just common sense.

Good Luck.

Very interesting.....as they never said that nor, I believe, is it in the instructions. Mine has been on the cardboard ceiling since I replaced it.  Monaco put it up there. I have seen the ATS on walls and ceilings and just about anywhere. The contractors don't know up from down. The surge devices, like the HW50C also are mounted as needed.

Fascinating.  I have over 70 K on my install.  May fail tomorrow...but no issues.  We have also not had any reports, that I can remember, due to that.  BUT....who knows....

 

I didn't receive any instructions with my LPT50BRD, just a wiring schematic on the interior and a label with torque specifications, that's why I called ESCO to check on recommended mounting orientation.  There are some Youtube videos that mention orientation sensitivities different model switches.  It would have been a lot easier to put the new one where the old one was on the ceiling of a storage bay had ESCO told me that was okay. Though I must say the mounting of the previous unit (an ATS-501 that replaced the original IOTA) was a bit sketchy as the unit nearly fell off the ceiling with a little jostling.  The new one is now bolted to some steel support members in the same bay -- it's not moving.  Luckily I had enough cable remaining to accomodate moving the switch.

WRT using Loctite, which formula are folks using, some formulas (on Amazon) are apparently not recommended for electrical use. Perusing the Loctite website they only show red and blue versions, searching for green doesn't provide any results.  Various green formulas, predominantly 290, are showing up on Amazon, has ESCO specified with formula to use?

The only tech documentation I could find the web was how to troubleshoot the switch if it stops working.  I'd appreciate getting a copy of, or a pointer on the web to a complete set of installation and operating instructions

TIA

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, CaptPat said:

 

I didn't receive any instructions with my LPT50BRD, just a wiring schematic on the interior and a label with torque specifications, that's why I called ESCO to check on recommended mounting orientation.  There are some Youtube videos that mention orientation sensitivities different model switches.  It would have been a lot easier to put the new one where the old one was on the ceiling of a storage bay had ESCO told me that was okay. Though I must say the mounting of the previous unit (an ATS-501 that replaced the original IOTA) was a bit sketchy as the unit nearly fell off the ceiling with a little jostling.  The new one is now bolted to some steel support members in the same bay -- it's not moving.  Luckily I had enough cable remaining to accomodate moving the switch.

WRT using Loctite, which formula are folks using, some formulas (on Amazon) are apparently not recommended for electrical use. Perusing the Loctite website they only show red and blue versions, searching for green doesn't provide any results.  Various green formulas, predominantly 290, are showing up on Amazon, has ESCO specified with formula to use?

The only tech documentation I could find the web was how to troubleshoot the switch if it stops working.  I'd appreciate getting a copy of, or a pointer on the web to a complete set of installation and operating instructions

TIA

This is what to use

https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/product/threadlockers/loctite_290.html

You can purchase at AutoZone.

[CaptPat]

Thanks, I found the henkel site after a bit more googling.

[cbr046]

If the shore / generator wires are "upside down", or not convenient to feed directly into a simple switch, one could exchange the wires that drive the relay coils reversing the shore and generator switches.  Of course, one would need to exchange labels (for the next guy or tech).  And, of course, this would void any warranty.  Not for the faint of heart.  I'm sure Tom Cherry is shivering now.  😁

If your switch has surge protection that opens up a whole new issue.  I know on my TRC (not) Surge Guard was pretty simple on the inside. 

- bob

[Tom Cherry]

13 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

If the shore / generator wires are "upside down", or not convenient to feed directly into a simple switch, one could exchange the wires that drive the relay coils reversing the shore and generator switches.  Of course, one would need to exchange labels (for the next guy or tech).  And, of course, this would void any warranty.  Not for the faint of heart.  I'm sure Tom Cherry is shivering now.  😁

If your switch has surge protection that opens up a whole new issue.  I know on my TRC (not) Surge Guard was pretty simple on the inside. 

- bob

Not shivering, but thinking about a disclaimer statement that my personal attorney and my liability umbrella policy will accept.  LOL. NOW THAT IS AN INTERESTING SOLUTION.  Yes.  It would work. YES…DOUBLE YES…it would involve a step by step, individual one wire at a time reconfiguration.  YES…We have many that could do it and not even think twice.

We moderators, from the early days, always wade into “basic trouble shooting for the novice says…”got me a VOM…How do I use it and what do I do?” situations with fear and trepidation.  

This solution, properly executed and documented (inside the ATS and with a printed explanation of the BEFORE and AFTER in a plastic envelope secured on the outside cover) would solve the issue of the position of the cables….but not, assuming an ESCO LPT50BRD was installed, the single point ground.

THEREFORE IT GETS THE PROCEED WITH GREAT CARE AND CAUTION AND ONLY FOR THOSE WITH FULL UNDERSTANDING AND ADVANCED ELECTRONIC/ELECTRICAL SKILLS.

I DO feel slightly warmer now….but bit is stil a bit frosty….LOL

[FishAR]

Talk of not mounting the esco on the ceiling scared me for a minute. That's where my iota was, that's where I put my esco, that's where it's staying because there's really no where else to put it.

 

[cbr046]

I have a couple of VOMs.  One says "Heathkit" on it, has this pointy thing and vacuum tubes inside.  The other is a Calectro (I think) that I bought for field service (in 1973).  Haven't seen it in a few years. 

Most of us are using DVMs these days.  When I get around AC I'm very cautious with mine (mostly for my sake).

Just sayin.

- bob

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, FishAR said:

Talk of not mounting the esco on the ceiling scared me for a minute. That's where my iota was, that's where I put my esco, that's where it's staying because there's really no where else to put it.

 

Some far there have not been any reports of premature failure.  Mine is 10 years old….in the ceiling.  And it has had at least 6,000 miles of vibration for 8 of them.  The IOTA failed because of a bad design as well as poor connections.  Nothing to do with location.  Proceed as planned.  NOW, if you read the post on mounting…..try to find READ metal and mount to one of the braces up there.  I did it that way as the iIOTA was loose.  Sheet metal screws (looked like deck screws) into the thin cardboard is not secure.  Just because Monaco’s method was shoddy, doesn’t mean you have to be…LOL!

[FishAR]

9 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Some far there have not been any reports of premature failure.  Mine is 10 years old….in the ceiling.  And it has had at least 6,000 miles of vibration for 8 of them.  The IOTA failed because of a bad design as well as poor connections.  Nothing to do with location.  Proceed as planned.  NOW, if you read the post on mounting…..try to find READ metal and mount to one of the braces up there.  I did it that way as the iIOTA was loose.  Sheet metal screws (looked like deck screws) into the thin cardboard is not secure.  Just because Monaco’s method was shoddy, doesn’t mean you have to be…LOL!

It's solid, I gave it the tug test (old lingo from my fifth wheel days)

[Roger 2006 HR Endeavor PDQ]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:00 AM, Tom Cherry said:

I have spent an hour or 2 yesterday looking at new replacement units. Price seems to be in the $200+ range. Chris Throgmartin suggested the Progressive brand. Other brands seem to be similar quality, some with plastic boxes others metal. I found several reviews but these seem to be a little inconclusive.

Tom,

I have the Progressive LCHW50 EMS. I learned about it on one of the RV forums and ordered on right away. But the EMS protects the coach from bad pedestal power in the park or a power surge. It is great! I just now checked Progressive's website and find only EMS devices in several configurations and power sources (30 or 50 Amp). None are described as including a transfer switch. I am puzzled as to why Chris Throgmartin would include that brand in a discussion of ATSs. 

The other brands mentioned all appear to be reliable ATS units. That said, if you don't have an EMS there are several available on the market. Our Progressive EMS has been in our '06 HR Endeavor since we bought it in 2015. Never had a failure if you don't count the damage done to the EMS by a nearby lightening strike (a super power surge) that damaged the transfer relay which was replaced free of charge by Progressive.

Roger Smalley
2006 HR Endeavor PDQ

[lake49068]

Try PROGRESSIVE DYNAMICS in Marshall, MI.  American made with a long RV history.   The transfer switch I installed after the ESCO failed works great without hum.  Lots of confusion with the two non-related companies sharing the same name.

[pcallison]

MODERATOR EDIT

Phil, glad you are OK.  However, since you have been reading and understand what has been posted here on the IOTA, this post should have been included in the continuing one.  We are trying to make the topics more organized and also more productive.  In the future, please do not start a new topic on an item that is being discussed, with a great deal of detail.  We have to clean this up.  I have merged your new topic into this one.

Thanks in advance.

Tom Cherry

Moderator

Gentlemen, 

I have been reading the IOTA ATS switch information.  Just so you know I was a lucky one.  Didn't know they were recalled and not knowing much about them, I didn't realize I should have checked the ATS.  Other than seeing it in the electrical bay.  Well, I got home from the maiden voyage, Knight got us to Tennessee and back to Ok, I thought without incident.  

Plugged my coach into my shore power in the shop when I got home, but noticed that the panel over the door wasn't picking up the power source.  And of course not knowing much about why, I figured that it was just me.  But upon further inspection today, discovered a major problem...burnt lug and wiring inside box.  (see pics)

So upon one article, IOTA ITS-50R, was recalled but it was never replaced on my coach.  It will be now of course.  

According to the article there were 2 recommendations:

1.  ESCO LPT50VBRD

2.  PROGRESSIVE HW50C

I called my local RV repair shop and he had World Friendship Model?  Is that a comparable replacement?

 

Also, I have quite a bit of electrical experience, is this something that I can do myself?  The local shop didn't recommend that I tackle this job?  What is the groups opinion, of courses I do not have any wiring diagrams either, but it at a glance seemed fairly straight forward.  As long as you don't mix up wiring.  Will have to see how much wiring will need to be replaced?  

 

Any suggestions, I am sure there will be.

 

[Walker]

I just replaced my Iota with the esco.  It is a straight forward process, you shouldn't have any problems doing it yourself.  I ordered mine from Marine Parts Source
102 SCT Drive
White House, Tennessee 37188,
United States.

It was $205 to the door.

Hopefully, Monaco gave you enough extra wire to pull.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Walker
Add source

[Fasthobie16]

If you have electrical experience, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to do it yourself. Just copy all connections and wiggle the wires after you tighten them. Then tighten them again.  Your going to get all kinds of recommendations for transfer switch’s. The Progressive HW50C is a not a transfer sw. it’s electrical management. Good unit if it’s the latest model. (Version 1.9 ) I have an ESCO  ES50M -65N. transfer switch next to the Progressive  LCHW 50  version 1.9 management unit.  Serving me well for many years. My old Progressive version 1.8 failed. It was original. 2000 yr. No longer in warranty. New version is lifetime now. 
 

2000 Dynasty 40 

04 Jeep Liberty Toad

[Dr4Film]

Wow! You are one LUCKY dude. You definitely dodge a BIG bullet.

Hopefully you have some extra length wire as the top wires look toasted pretty good so those will have to be cut way back.

Because of the toasted wires you most likely will have to relocate everything somewhat differently.

I would invest in a Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50 unit along with the ESCO LPTBRD Transfer switch.

Install the EMS-HW-50C first followed with the ESCO LPTBRD.

That's the preferred setup by many members here.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, pcallison said:

MODERATOR EDIT

Phil, glad you are OK.  We have had an ongoing and very complete IOTA topic. I have merged your comments into this one rather than keep it as a standalone.  Thanks in advance for searching and using an ongoing topic so we don't have to do housekeeping..

Tom Cherry; Moderator

Gentlemen, 

I have been reading the IOTA ATS switch information.  Just so you know I was a lucky one.  Didn't know they were recalled and not knowing much about them, I didn't realize I should have checked the ATS.  Other than seeing it in the electrical bay.  Well, I got home from the maiden voyage, Knight got us to Tennessee and back to Ok, I thought without incident.  

Plugged my coach into my shore power in the shop when I got home, but noticed that the panel over the door wasn't picking up the power source.  And of course not knowing much about why, I figured that it was just me.  But upon further inspection today, discovered a major problem...burnt lug and wiring inside box.  (see pics)

So upon one article, IOTA ITS-50R, was recalled but it was never replaced on my coach.  It will be now of course.  

According to the article there were 2 recommendations:

1.  ESCO LPT50VBRD

2.  PROGRESSIVE HW50C

I called my local RV repair shop and he had World Friendship Model?  Is that a comparable replacement?

 

Also, I have quite a bit of electrical experience, is this something that I can do myself?  The local shop didn't recommend that I tackle this job?  What is the groups opinion, of courses I do not have any wiring diagrams either, but it at a glance seemed fairly straight forward.  As long as you don't mix up wiring.  Will have to see how much wiring will need to be replaced?  

 

Any suggestions, I am sure there will be.

 

Scan the posts here.   There are many brands listed.  Over the past 13 years since I have been on the Monacoers (Old and New site as a Moderator or contributor), ESCO is the most popular and trusted brand of ATS.  There are comments about others here, so you can do your own evaluation.  If you choose the ESCO line, their Tech Support....as well as the most stocked replacement by a majority of repair shops is the LPT50BRD.  It is a LOW voltage (control circuitry) model and is was known as the LYGHT and folks like Richard (Dr4Film) can attest to the reliability. ESCO also made the "65N" that was mentioned.  It was a mainstay with the "old timers" and equally robust. The only difference, per ESCO, in the two models.  The original 65N is a 120 VAC coil unit. It frequently, depending on location, has an AC HUM.  Whether you can hear it depends on your hearing (mine is shot) as well as the location. ESCO was receiving a lot of complaints about the AC Hum....they were developing a replacement and then decided to purchase the LYGHT and market that. They even considered dropping the 65N, but their marketing and field folks, per their Senior Design and Development Engineer (circa 2014 in a LONG Q&A on the phone), then made the decision to keep the 65N in the line.  It appears that it's reputation has kept it alive. So, the choice is yours and you should have adequate information.  If you reread the posts here there are instructions on how to install and also to use, per ESCO, Loctite 290 Green when you do the install to prevent vibration.  This one Topic is an ongoing summary and probably the best information on the IOTA issues on an forum today.  That is a great compliment on our members and the knowledge base we have here.

After you read and research and decide on which ATS you need, that is an easy install.  t is a matter of keeping the cables labeled and having good eye hand dexterity and being able to complete a simple DIY job.

Good Luck.  Keep posting and keep us aprised of what you do.  We all learn.

Thanks,

[Martinvz]

Yes, you can do the install yourself. It is not complex at all. If the gen and house cables are not marked or obvious which is which then you need to determine that first. It may be a challenge if the power is off with the burnt connectors. 
It took me about 2 hours because I’m old and had to do do some wire shortening to get the wires to fit.