Leg 2 of 50 Amp showing OFF in 2005 Monaco Executive

[rschley]

Posted previously in March. Still an issue. Brought to shop and they didn’t help much. 
I don’t have power on Leg 2, per Kenwood display. Happens on both shore and generator. Checked ATS ( not IOTA brand) 120 in as well as 240 out on shore and generator. Tightened all lugs. Went to panel, tightened all lugs.  Tested incoming and outgoing lugs on Breaker.  120 and 240 in and out each lug. Removed breaker from panel and tested continuity on both sides of the breaker and was good. Now, with both incoming wires exposed, I tested each wire to the silver connection in the panel and one was 120 and other was 0. Appears power is getting to both legs in but not continuing on with one of the legs. Any suggestions?? 

[JDCrow]

So to be clear to my simple mind:

There is 120 on each leg coming out of the ATS on both shore power and generator, but once the wires get from ATS to main breaker panel, you’ve lost one leg of 120?

[CAT Stephen]

When the ATS is properly functioning, it should bond L1 & L2 under generator operation as the generator should have a single phase (i.e. L1) output.  I'm not certain as you did not specify what on-board generator that you have.

From what you have described and troubleshooted thus far, the most probable failure mode is that the ATS is defective.

[Guest Ray Davis]

2 minutes ago, CAT Stephen said:

When the ATS is properly functioning, it should bond L1 & L2 under generator operation as the generator should have a single phase (i.e. L1) output.  I'm not certain as you did not specify what on-board generator that you have.

From what you have described and troubleshooted thus far, the most probable failure mode is that the ATS is defective.

I think he probably has a gen that put out 240v.  Different & better than ours.

[rschley]

28 minutes ago, rschley said:

Posted previously in March. Still an issue. Brought to shop and they didn’t help much. 
I don’t have power on Leg 2, per Kenwood display. Happens on both shore and generator. Checked ATS ( not IOTA brand) 120 in as well as 240 out on shore and generator. Tightened all lugs. Went to panel, tightened all lugs.  Tested incoming and outgoing lugs on Breaker.  120 and 240 in and out each lug. Removed breaker from panel and tested continuity on both sides of the breaker and was good. Now, with both incoming wires exposed, I tested each wire to the silver connection in the panel and one was 120 and other was 0. Appears power is getting to both legs in but not continuing on with one of the legs. Any suggestions?? 

What happens… looking at the picture,  exposed wires are from ATS, hook meter to top wire then to silver plate in box, where breaker connects, 0 volts. Hook meter to bottom wire and touch silver plate in box, have 120 volts. All else tests ok to this point.  

[cbr046]

"Silver plate" . . . . the common (neutral) bus bar? 

But L1 and L2 are both good leaving the ATS? 

You could short L1 & L2 together at the ATS (removing ALL power to the coach, of course) and ohming L1 & L2 at the coach circuit panel. 

- bob

[Dr4Film]

Sounds to me like your transfer switch has failed OR your bottom RED wire has been severed completely somewhere between the transfer switch and your power panel which to me is highly unlikely. Unless you have a very LARGE rat living in your coach which likes to chew on electrical cables.

My next move would be to test continuity of the RED wire at the transfer switch and the exposed end at the power panel.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Dr4Film

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, rschley said:

Tested incoming and outgoing lugs on Breaker.  120 and 240 in and out each lug.

This should not be possible if there was a ATS or cable problem. And then nothing on one incoming leg when removed from the breaker? Makes no sense for both cases to be true.

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, rschley said:

hook meter to top wire then to silver plate in box, where breaker connects,

He appears not to be measuring from the ground, It's a little hard to follow.

Depending on what was downstream on the circuit, you could get odd readings the way he seems to be measuring ( across where a breaker was ).

I can't tell if the other breakers are off,  but that might account for erratic readings if he is measuring the wrong way.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Ray Davis

[Dr4Film]

Maybe it's time to hire an experienced electrician that is familiar with high end RV coaches to troubleshoot the problem.

Obviously the RV shop had no clue.

[vito.a]

To clear up some confusion, The Executive, Navigator and 42' Dynasty come with with a 10k 240V Onan generator.  The Signature and Marquis come with a 12k 240V Onan generator.  

Ron, do you have a surge suppressor or EMS after your ATS?  I'd be checking and/or replacing it.  

[Tom Cherry]

OK....  ALL OF US ARE CONFUSED.

The following information is needed before we all chase our tails and think we are biting another dog's tail  

@rschley

We need some solid and commonly understood information.  Here is what I THOUGHT you said...

If you measure from the RED and the Black on the #6 Cables on the Breaker panel you get this

Red to Black - 240 VAC

Red to Neutral or the Silver Lug in the lower right corner of the Box...Black with White stripe - You get 120 from each.  RED and BLACK. 

YES, he has a 240 Genny, so the legs are OUT OF PHASE.  The 05's came with a 10 Kw, unless special ordered...so it is 240...so the L1 and L2 are NOT bonded.  Technically, on my Onan 8KW, they are NOT bonded but they come off the same tap on the Generator.  They are separate lines or feeds and come through a common dual pole 35 A breaker....

OK.. NOW, here is where most, including me cannot exactly follow.

When you say "WIRES", do you mean the Large #6 Cables (the top lugs) or do you mean each individual circuit.  Based on what I think I know and understand....  You said you got 240 Across the lugs....with the breaker IN.  Taking it out should NOT change that.  I appears to me that you have ONE or TWO problems. BUT, here is what we need.

There are TWO Tabs or "these snap into the breaker" in the box.  The 50A dual breaker is TWO separate breakers....NOT interconnected.  When you snap in the breaker, that then connects ONE side or one breaker to tabs.  The breaker has two separate contacts.  One is where it snaps into or you push it in or up to seat it.  THEN you push it straight in....that engages the tabs.  If I look at the picture.  On the RIGHT is the large copper buss going to the RIGHT SIDE.  The other tab goes to the left side.

If there is a problem in the breaker that the snap in portion does not make contact with the incoming #6....then NO CIRCUIT through the breaker...and there will be NO power to pass into the Bottom Tab and no power to the buss to either side.

There is only ONE THING I can offer...not knowing you electrical skills.....past that, this is NOT an RV or Motorhome problem.  This is a COMMON Distribution Panel and any qualified Residential or Commercial licenses electrician should be working on it.  NOT an RV tech that can't "wire a house".

SO...here is what I would try....and if this works...it might be temporary.  IF there is a BAD connection when the 50 Amp breaker is snapped in, then the USUAL, TRY THIS is to go to Lowes and buy Gardner Bender Ox Guard Anti Oxident or Corrosion or go to Amazon or wherever and by NoAlox Anti Oxident.  This is like a "toothpaste with metal fines (Zinc?).  Electricians use it when there is a contact issue, like snapping in a breaker and not making contact.  Use it on a toothpick and coat the copper terminals or recesses on the breaker and (WITH POWER OFF, OF COURSE), the two recesses at the top where the breaker slips in and the lower 2 tabs that are exposed.

If that works, then it says there is (was) a contact issue.  YOU COULD buy a new 50 Amp breaker.....and try that...but if the issue is in the panel, then you have a new breaker and a bad panel.  

Those, based on my experience and working on many different boxes and also having to recover some boxes where moisture corroded the snap tabs....is all I know.

Others MAY have other suggestions.  BUT, the way you worded the "Wires" is not clear.

Please update and advise....

[rschley]

Hello Tom and others,

Sorry for being so unclear. After reading and rereading and learning from your posts, let me try to clarify with this...

After testing ATS and with breaker installed, all looked good...120 on L1 and L2 and 240 when combined. Went all the way to the breaker in the panel.

I then disconnected the breaker and set it aside (just checked it for continuity and it was ok)  leaving me the Red/Black #6 wire and Black #6 wire with bare ends as shown in the picture. Then in one of those uneducated "just for the heck of it moves" Now with the breaker eliminated from the equation, I ran a meter test from the Black/Red #6 to the bottom snap in tab (previously referred to silver tabs) and had 120v. I then ran a test from the Black #6 to the top snap in tab (previously referred to as the silver tab) and had a reading of 0v. I had expected that to be 120v since the other leg was 120v, leading me to believe this might lead to the problem.

If this is an erroneous way of testing this, please feel free to let me know. My ego will recover.

If this helps, send a response. Otherwise I will rerun the tests to confirm my facts and can repost. Just got it back to my 50 amp source of power. .

(I hesitate to cloud the issue, but this might be noteworthy in a diagnosis of the problem. I am plugged into my home 50 amp source that has a GFI breaker. I start the 10k generator. After about 30seconds, or when generator kicks in, the 50amp breaker trips.) That leads to an ATS issue, although it tested (by an amateur) out OK.

I appreciate all the input. Any additional thoughts ?? I will try out the suggestions that were already posted.

 

 

[Dr4Film]

Why would you have a GFI on a 50 amp circuit breaker?

If I were to test the bare 6 gauge wires testing for 120 VAC I would touch one probe to the wire and the second probe to the neutral bar with all of the white wires attached to it. That will tell you whether each wire is has 120 VAC coming from the transfer switch.

[rschley]

Good idea.  I will try that. 
 

Electrician said GFI was now required on RV plug ins. At least here in MN. 
 

Thanks!! 

[Just Jim]

That box looks sketchy to me as there are signs of arching in there.  As Dr4 said... put one test lead on the white wire terminals and then check each of the other large wires. 

[Dr4Film]

17 minutes ago, rschley said:

Electrician said GFI was now required on RV plug ins. At least here in MN.

Didn't realize that MN had a code like that. I have traveled all over and have never seen any RV Pedestal with a 50 amp GFI. However, we haven't been in MN yet.

Does that mean that all of the campgrounds and RV parks had to retrofit each 50 amp service with a 50 amp GFI? Or were they grandfathered with the older code so they weren't required to do that?

[rschley]

I have not seen it in the campgrounds. Mine was installed about a year ago. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

2 hours ago, rschley said:

I have not seen it in the campgrounds. Mine was installed about a year ago. 

Maybe the electrician wasn't sure and was just covering his backside.

2 hours ago, rschley said:

. I then ran a test from the Black #6 to the top snap in tab (previously referred to as the silver tab) and had a reading of 0v.

When one probe is connected to the hot wire the other probe should go to the ground so what you were reading at black & red was backfeeding through the lower breakers, through some appliance finally to reach the ground.  The question I have is why the black wire doesn't react the same way.

 

2 hours ago, Just Jim said:

That box looks sketchy to me as there are signs of arching in there.  As Dr4 said... put one test lead on the white wire terminals and then check each of the other large wires. 

I agree, the plastic looks burned & sketchy.    If it is you need a new box.

 

[waterskier_1]

3 hours ago, rschley said:

Hello Tom and others,

Sorry for being so unclear. After reading and rereading and learning from your posts, let me try to clarify with this...

After testing ATS and with breaker installed, all looked good...120 on L1 and L2 and 240 when combined. Went all the way to the breaker in the panel.

I then disconnected the breaker and set it aside (just checked it for continuity and it was ok)  leaving me the Red/Black #6 wire and Black #6 wire with bare ends as shown in the picture. Then in one of those uneducated "just for the heck of it moves" Now with the breaker eliminated from the equation, I ran a meter test from the Black/Red #6 to the bottom snap in tab (previously referred to silver tabs) and had 120v. I then ran a test from the Black #6 to the top snap in tab (previously referred to as the silver tab) and had a reading of 0v. I had expected that to be 120v since the other leg was 120v, leading me to believe this might lead to the problem.

If this is an erroneous way of testing this, please feel free to let me know. My ego will recover.

If this helps, send a response. Otherwise I will rerun the tests to confirm my facts and can repost. Just got it back to my 50 amp source of power. .

(I hesitate to cloud the issue, but this might be noteworthy in a diagnosis of the problem. I am plugged into my home 50 amp source that has a GFI breaker. I start the 10k generator. After about 30seconds, or when generator kicks in, the 50amp breaker trips.) That leads to an ATS issue, although it tested (by an amateur) out OK.

I appreciate all the input. Any additional thoughts ?? I will try out the suggestions that were already posted.

 

 

This seems to be made more difficult, or my mind is too simple.  I what to clarify that when you measured L1 & L2 "combined" you measured between them, that is one probe on L1 and the Luther prove on L2.  And when you did that you measured 220 (240) Volts.  And you measured that with the breaker installed.  But you didn't have one leg on the power panel.  This indicates that either the breaker is not making proper contact (not seated properly) or the breaker (one of the "dual breakers" is bad.   My money souk be on the breaker being bad. 

  - Rick N 

[Dr4Film]

The circuit breakers have been removed and he claims that one of the main 6 gauge wires show no power. So it can't be the circuit breaker.

The whole thread is confusing and convoluted which makes trying to help even worse.

This is exactly what happens when people are as clear as mud. 😇

[Bob Blackmon]

Confused on top and bottom snap? Measure between the mains and the white/black wire.

[MyronTruex]

I would not rely on using an ohmeter to check a breaker. The breaker needs to be under load.

 

A wire the size of a hair will read zero ohms, but won't carry a load of course. I know it is more dangerous to measure live wires but you can add some safety measures. Like taping up all but the tip of your meter. Wearing some simple rubber gloves in case of a momentary slip. Or course standing on insulations such as carpet really helps inside. 

 

With your pictures, see if you can edit them to add your readings. Then things should be very clear. 

Have you made any modifications or repairs in the last six months???

[amphi_sc]

Looking at his picture I wonder what the Black w/white stripe wire on the bottom lug is feeding?  The top lug has no wire attached so that bus lug is not passing power to anything. Is that Black w/white stripe wire feeding a sub breaker box for a 120v washer - dryer combination? Or to a single in inverter?  (I.e. where does your inverter/ charger get its power?)

On my coach, power likewise comes in thru the double breaker to power the bus bars which in turn powers the other breakers AND the top & bottom lugs which feed 240v to my 240v dryer sub panel which has the breakers feeding the dryer.  The inverter/charger has two breakers feeding it power from box via 10 ga wire.  And my inverter then powers another adjacent sub panel for the sockets, fridge, TV, microwave, etc... I'm not getting a clear understanding of your particular electrical setup 

What's the underlying problem you are trying to solve? Is it that your Aladdin display shows a leg as off?  When in fact all circuits work fine?  Is your transfer switch feeding the Aladdin display?  If so it could be one of the monitor wires in the transfer switch is disconnected from the output side of the transfer switch thus the Aladdin doesn't see power on that one leg even though power is indeed on that leg.

Edited September 21, 2023 by amphi_sc

[rschley]

Problem is Alladin showing Leg 2 as off. When running AC or other electrical draws, they all appear on Leg 1.

Excellent point on the Alladin connection to the transfer switch. I will check that. Good idea.

Thanks !!