Lost 3 gallons from Tranny, am I screwed

[jacwjames]

I had to have my radiator replaced several years ago but while building a new house used the rig intermittently. In 2021 while on several long trips I had instances of very high (+235F) transmission temps, most of the time happening after getting stuck in stop and go traffic.

I checked the existing in radiator transmission oil cooler and couldn't find a problem but I think the radiator company (CG&J) didn't size the cooler properly. I reached out to them and got no help.
So I decided to install a Derale auxiliary cooler early last year. All was good, I saw temps drop to the 170F level on hard pulls or in stop and go traffic.
I am on a trip and on Friday crossed the Rocky mountains on I70. All was good, engine and transmission performed great.
Pulled into a campground north of the Arches National Park. Long story short I found my Derale cooler leaking an the return line to transmission. I've reached out to Derale so we'll see where that goes. My only option was to bypass the cooler and used some fittings to tie both IN/OUT lines together


My biggest concern is that I had to put 3 gallons of tranny oil in to get it to an acceptable level using the cold level check. I then took it for a short drive on the highway. Temps got to 160F, seemed to shift properly.

3 gallons is a considerable amount, should I be concerned.
I did check for codes and I do not get any. I pressed the UP/Down arrow twice and all that came up was a D1, then nothing else. Am I doing the code check correctly???

[Dr4Film]

Jim, if you got D1 with nothing else displaying, then you have no diagnostic codes in memory.

3 gallons is a lot. What is the total amount that the Allison holds? I am not at my Laptop where I have access to that information.

[cbr046]

Looks like 48 quart (12 gallon) capacity - https://thecampingadvisor.com/allison-4000-transmission-fluid-capacity/

- bob

[Ivan K]

If you have allison 3000 with presumably deep pan, it would hold 29 qts. As long as the pump did not suck air (which would cause slipping and foaming) and temps stayed down, I would think you are ok.

[klcdenver]

3gallons is a lot but if it didn’t get hot or slip you are probably ok. You are checking the level incorrectly thou. Get tranny temp above 150 and let it idle in neutral for 1-2 minutes. Next press only once the up and down arrows simultaneously and let go. It will go to number 7 and it will start counting down. It takes a minute or so and it will give you over or under on quart quantity. If it is good it will blink ok. Hit any button to clear.
 

When in stop and go traffic when stopped shift to neutral will help it stay cooler. 
 

[Bill R]

Jim - might be good to call an Allison shop and talk to a senior shop person.  I did that when I discovered my 3000 was 1 gallon low for possibly 10,000 miles when I bought the coach.  I was told not to worry for that amount.  But I can't say regarding the 3 gallons.

[Robert92867]

Did you get your jeep sorted out?

[jacwjames]

I was driving west on I70 out of Grand Junction toward Utah.  I stopped in Thompsons Spring right off the interstate.  The last 20 miles of the interstate was pretty flat no grades.   I closely monitor my temps via a Silverleaf display and even have an alarm set for the Tranny temp a 210F it did not sound. 

When I pulled into the campground I did not see any leak/problems.  But when I moved Sunday to a different campground it would not get out of first gear.  When I stopped and walked around the back of the coach I saw the leak.  Not a heavy flow but a constant drip.  Quickly dropped the jeep and got to my assigned campsite and that's when I saw where the leak was.  Temps never got high on the short move. 

Jeep still is missing. 

1 hour ago, klcdenver said:

3gallons is a lot but if it didn’t get hot or slip you are probably ok. You are checking the level incorrectly thou. Get tranny temp above 150 and let it idle in neutral for 1-2 minutes. Next press only once the up and down arrows simultaneously and let go. It will go to number 7 and it will start counting down. It takes a minute or so and it will give you over or under on quart quantity. If it is good it will blink ok. Hit any button to clear.
 

When in stop and go traffic when stopped shift to neutral will help it stay cooler. 
 

Just to be able to test drive it I had to put oil in it and the only way to check is to add some oil and check level using the dip stick while at idle.  So I added a gallon and checked no oil on dip stick.  Added another gallon, oil barely touching dipstick.  Added 3rd gallon and it was a the correct level.

I then took on the drive and got temps to ~160, parked and let it sit ~4 minutes and started trying to check level, it counts down from 7 until it will actually let you check.  Finally go the OL-OK when I pressed the up/down arrows. 

When I got back to the campground I tried to pull codes by hitting up/down arrow twice and all I got is a D1 with not codes to follow.    So I assume there were not codes. 

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, Bill R said:

Jim - might be good to call an Allison shop and talk to a senior shop person.  I did that when I discovered my 3000 was 1 gallon low for possibly 10,000 miles when I bought the coach.  I was told not to worry for that amount.  But I can't say regarding the 3 gallons.

Good suggestion

So I got on line and the closest Allison shop is in Grand Junction, gave them a call but no answer but left a message for the service department.  Hopefully they will call me back. 

May try to call Allison customer support.

 

[jacwjames]

So I just got off the phone with an Allison shop in St George Utah.  Talked to 2 different people and both said I shouldn't have a problem since I wasn't having problems before stopping, temps stayed below 170 and I have an alarm set at 210 on the Silverleaf it didn't go off.  They also said that I knew that it was an external leak and I know it didn't go into my coolant system. 

I talked to the service department about getting a fluid filter change and he confirmed what the first person said and didn't recommend a service but to watch the temps closely and if they don't start climbing I should be good. 

So maybe I dodged a bullet.

[Frank Bergamo]

Jim, the Allison shop in Grand Junction recently closed up. You won’t have any luck there.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I had to have my radiator replaced several years ago but while building a new house used the rig intermittently. In 2021 while on several long trips I had instances of very high (+235F) transmission temps, most of the time happening after getting stuck in stop and go traffic.

I checked the existing in radiator transmission oil cooler and couldn't find a problem but I think the radiator company (CG&J) didn't size the cooler properly. I reached out to them and got no help.
So I decided to install a Derale auxiliary cooler early last year. All was good, I saw temps drop to the 170F level on hard pulls or in stop and go traffic.
I am on a trip and on Friday crossed the Rocky mountains on I70. All was good, engine and transmission performed great.
Pulled into a campground north of the Arches National Park. Long story short I found my Derale cooler leaking an the return line to transmission. I've reached out to Derale so we'll see where that goes. My only option was to bypass the cooler and used some fittings to tie both IN/OUT lines together


My biggest concern is that I had to put 3 gallons of tranny oil in to get it to an acceptable level using the cold level check. I then took it for a short drive on the highway. Temps got to 160F, seemed to shift properly.

3 gallons is a considerable amount, should I be concerned.
I did check for codes and I do not get any. I pressed the UP/Down arrow twice and all that came up was a D1, then nothing else. Am I doing the code check correctly???

FIRST….call Allison.  Let THEM advise you.  But you are (may be) sort of “past the point”.  The Transmission MUST be at Operating Temperature.  Then do the level check with the keypad…..assuming that is what you meant.  FWIW, Allison told me when I needed a “3 QT” fill…never “trust” their electronics.  They said to ADD only one QT at a time.  Added the second.  BINGO OK.  That was in 2018.  Some 12K later, I noticed a little “abrupt” on kerchunk in the downshift when I engaged the exhaust brake.  Level OK.  OK….lets see.  Put in 1 QT.  Level still OK.  Drove…better.  Added maybe 1/2 qt (guess from 5 gal container.  STILL OK.  So….it drives like new now.  That is what Allison means by “trust but verify”.

Next up.  The range or worry point is usually 225/230, DegF IIRC when I spoke to Allison.    Transynd is actually good for much higher….maybe 250 DegF, but  the valving (valving 5-6?) is the weak link…

Allison will help….Go there first….then figure out what to do.  BUT, once you get everything straightened out, I’d drop the Allison pan and filter and do the 19 QT change….you’re probably OK, but I’d err on conservative and spend the bucks for the 3 or 4 year recommended filter and fluid change. IF you do it yourself.  Do NOT let it drain.  Put in the filter (buy direct from Allison shop….genuine Transynd….there are fakes in fake Allison boxes….Another option, Mobil Delvac is certified from Allison….only one I might consider….

[tmw188]

Maybe when you can crack open the drain plug and drain off a few ounces into a clear cup and take a look for residue and definitely give it a smell test. 
 

Edited October 11, 2023 by tmw188

[jacwjames]

7 hours ago, Frank Bergamo said:

Jim, the Allison shop in Grand Junction recently closed up. You won’t have any luck there.

Thanks, there phone is still active and left a message but no one contacted me, NOW I know why. 

27 minutes ago, tmw188 said:

Maybe when you can crack open the drain plug and drain off a few ounces into a clear cup and take a look for residue and definitely give it a smell test

I actually caught some of the oil while it was dripping from the cooler, looked OK and no burnt smell. 

I could not get through to "Corporate" Allison, phone system had message saying they were having technical difficulty but I talked to 2 different people at the ST George UT shop and both said the same thing. >>>>   I am probably all right.  I even tried to get an appointment for a filter/fluid change and he said he wouldn't do it.   He save the money and do it when I get home where I can do it myself. 

So that's my plan and I'll also take a sample and send it in for analysis. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by jacwjames

[tmw188]

Yep that’s all you can do. Your in Moab now your climbs are pretty much behind you for the most part, except for the hike up to Delicate Arch!

[FLynes]

Jim, for grins and giggles, when you get home take a sample of fluid and send it to Blackstone for analysis. That will tell you 100% for sure if there’s any cause for concern.

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, FLynes said:

Jim, for grins and giggles, when you get home take a sample of fluid and send it to Blackstone for analysis. That will tell you 100% for sure if there’s any cause for concern.

I have been using JG Lubrication for coolant, engine, and tranny. 

My plan is to do a service on the tranny when I get home, take a sample and send it in.  I was planning on sampling anyway, I believe I still have some sample kits at in my garage. 

[96 EVO]

I'm more than surprised your tranny was still shifting normally being 3gal low!

[jacwjames]

So was I but I had no indication of any problem until I was moving the 1/4 mile to the 2nd campground and at that point it would shift out of 1st gear. 

Based on what the Allison reps said maybe I got lucky. 

 

 

[dandick66]

10 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I have been using JG Lubrication for coolant, engine, and tranny. 

My plan is to do a service on the tranny when I get home, take a sample and send it in.  I was planning on sampling anyway, I believe I still have some sample kits at in my garage. 

Jim,                    
You certainly didn’t help it,  but I doubt you did any real damage to the transmission.  If the total transmission capacity is 12 gallons and you had to add 3 gallons, that’s 25 percent.  Think of a “regular “ car engine.  They used to be 5 quarts and you could run them 1 quart low forever without any fear of damage.  Well that’s 20 percent of the total capacity.  You should be safe, but for peace of mind, pull a sample and send it to JG Labs.  They’ll be able to tell you whether to change your fluid or not, and what kind of wear was on the fluid. 
Good luck and enjoy the rest of your trip.

[grizzly]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:58 AM, Tom Cherry said:

FIRST….call Allison.  Let THEM advise you.  But you are (may be) sort of “past the point”.  The Transmission MUST be at Operating Temperature.  Then do the level check with the keypad…..assuming that is what you meant.  FWIW, Allison told me when I needed a “3 QT” fill…never “trust” their electronics.  They said to ADD only one QT at a time.  Added the second.  BINGO OK.  That was in 2018.  Some 12K later, I noticed a little “abrupt” on kerchunk in the downshift when I engaged the exhaust brake.  Level OK.  OK….lets see.  Put in 1 QT.  Level still OK.  Drove…better.  Added maybe 1/2 qt (guess from 5 gal container.  STILL OK.  So….it drives like new now.  That is what Allison means by “trust but verify”.

Next up.  The range or worry point is usually 225/230, DegF IIRC when I spoke to Allison.    Transynd is actually good for much higher….maybe 250 DegF, but  the valving (valving 5-6?) is the weak link…

Allison will help….Go there first….then figure out what to do.  BUT, once you get everything straightened out, I’d drop the Allison pan and filter and do the 19 QT change….you’re probably OK, but I’d err on conservative and spend the bucks for the 3 or 4 year recommended filter and fluid change. IF you do it yourself.  Do NOT let it drain.  Put in the filter (buy direct from Allison shop….genuine Transynd….there are fakes in fake Allison boxes….Another option, Mobil Delvac is certified from Allison….only one I might consider….

How do you do a level check with keypad? I have 07 sig. I have never found a dip stick for checking the level and I think I have looked everywhere

[Ivan K]

Fluid temp at least 160F, in neutral with engine running press UP and Down at the same time, once. It will start a countdown and tell you either OK or how much low/high. If you had a dipstick, it only is meant to check safe level after fluid change.

[Tom Cherry]

FIRST....go to your manual.  Look on page 248. 

Keep reading.  The exact and easy to follow instructions are on page 251.  The Allison reps at our Gatherings suggest or almost mandate the HOT CHECK.  Drive it...get the tranny up to 200 Deg or so as that is the NORMAL operating temperature.....Stop & LEVEL the MH...  Follow the HOT or at Operating Temp procedure....

if you do NOT have a manual or you need help with any OTHER device....then....  as our founders said.... Google and your Cell Phone are the two MOST important tools in your "Tool Box"

use this as the SEARCH criteria.... There are also YouTube Videos....

allison transmission oil level check keypad

https://www.rvtechlibrary.com/transmissions/fluidcheck.php#:~:text=Checking Fluid Level with the Keypad&text=To enter the transmission oil,oil is at operating temperature

[jacwjames]

7 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

FIRST....go to your manual.  Look on page 248. 

Keep reading.  The exact and easy to follow instructions are on page 251.  The Allison reps at our Gatherings suggest or almost mandate the HOT CHECK.  Drive it...get the tranny up to 200 Deg or so as that is the NORMAL operating temperature.....Stop & LEVEL the MH...  Follow the HOT or at Operating Temp procedure....

if you do NOT have a manual or you need help with any OTHER device....then....  as our founders said.... Google and your Cell Phone are the two MOST important tools in your "Tool Box"

use this as the SEARCH criteria.... There are also YouTube Videos....

allison transmission oil level check keypad

https://www.rvtechlibrary.com/transmissions/fluidcheck.php#:~:text=Checking Fluid Level with the Keypad&text=To enter the transmission oil,oil is at operating temperature

I actually did a hot check on last Thursday, wanted to make sure everything was OK before ascending the mountains, it OK.

Since I found the leak and did not know how much I needed to add and did not want to drive the coach enough to do a hot check I added a gallon of oil and cold checked, then added another cold check and did another check, at which point the oil was at the bottom of the dip stick, so I added another gallon did a cold check and it showed full at cold mark.  At that point I took it on a drive, got the temp up enough to check it hot and it was OK. 

So I think it's important that everyone know how to do both IF there rig came with a dip stick. 

 

[tmw188]

Jim, were you able to find some Transynd or did you just add some Dextron for now? Just curious.